Has the Law been done away with?

[Elia]

I don't know why you say this.

Have you read Psalm 22

Bs"d

Yes.

and Isaiah 53?

That too.

Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah.

No it is not, it is about ISRAEL.

For the finer details look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com

I believe this is Yeshua, Jesus.

You believe wrong. He didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies, so he was not the messiah.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

 

[Jacob]

Bs"d

Of course it is the case. JC says: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven"
Matthew 5

Comes Paul and the throws the whole law overboard.

How can you say that they don't contradict each other??


"One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination."
Prov 28:9

Jesus came before Paul. You are talking about Paul first for some reason.

 

[Jacob]

Bs"d

Yes.



That too.



No it is not, it is about ISRAEL.

For the finer details look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com



You believe wrong. He didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies, so he was not the messiah.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

You believe there are Messianic prophecies, as I do. We need to read them and see if Jesus fulfilled them.

 

[jamie]

The ten commandments were given to all of mankind at his creation hence it is that Cain could sin by killing ie breaking law number 6. Cain has been warned "sin lieth at the door" in Genesis 4:7. Sin is defined as "the transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4.

Adultery is another example.

Genesis 20:6: "And God said to him in a dream, 'Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me, therefore I did not let you touch her.'"

 

[Elia]

You believe there are Messianic prophecies, as I do. We need to read them and see if Jesus fulfilled them.

Bs"d

Yes; let's do that!

Here are a few:



Who and what is the messiah? Let us check according to the Holy Hebrew scriptures what the messiah is supposed to do.

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD is our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

.

Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.


What do you think Jacob? Are they fulfilled?

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Adultery is another example.

Genesis 20:6: "And God said to him in a dream, 'Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me, therefore I did not let you touch her.'"

Bs"d

Both murder and adultery are a part of the seven Noachide commandments:

1. Idolatry is forbidden. Man is commanded to believe in the One G-d alone and worship only Him.

2. Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden. Human beings are not sexual objects, nor is pleasure the ultimate goal of life.

3. Murder is forbidden. The life of a human being, formed in G-d's image, is sacred.

4. Cursing the name of G-d is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting G-d, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals.

5. Theft is forbidden. The world is not ours to do with as we please.

6. Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden. This teaches us to be sensitive to cruelty to animals. (This was commanded to Noah for the first time along with the permission of eating meat. The rest were already given to Adam in the Garden of Eden.)

7. Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice and a just social order to enforce the first six laws and enact any other useful laws or customs.

"But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil."
Ecc 12:12-14, New American Standard Bible

 

[Jacob]

Bs"d

Yes; let's do that!

Here are a few:



Who and what is the messiah? Let us check according to the Holy Hebrew scriptures what the messiah is supposed to do.

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD is our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

.

Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.


What do you think Jacob? Are they fulfilled?

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

Do you have some Messianic prophecies? And what does it mean to be fulfilled?

 

[Elia]

Do you have some Messianic prophecies?

Bs"d

Yes, here they come again:

Who and what is the messiah? Let us check according to the Holy Hebrew scriptures what the messiah is supposed to do.

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD is our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

.

Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.

And what does it mean to be fulfilled?

If you don't know what that means then I don't think there is any use in continuing this discussion.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

 

[Jacob]

Bs"d

Yes, here they come again:

Who and what is the messiah? Let us check according to the Holy Hebrew scriptures what the messiah is supposed to do.

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD is our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

.

Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.



If you don't know what that means then I don't think there is any use in continuing this discussion.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

Do you have a list of scriptures that are about the coming Messiah? I believe the Messiah who was to come has already come, Yeshua.

Not your arguments against Yeshua being the Messiah, just Messianic prophecies and their fulfillment.

If you don't know the fulfillment then just the scripture that you believe to be Messianic (of or pertaining to the Messiah).

 

[Elia]

Do you have a list of scriptures that are about the coming Messiah?

Bs"d

I gave you a list two times already. Do you want it a third time?

I believe the Messiah who was to come has already come, Yeshua.

And that is where you go wrong.

Not your arguments against Yeshua being the Messiah, just Messianic prophecies and their fulfillment.

I can give you messianic prophecies, like I did two times already, but I cannot give you fulfilment, because they are not yet fulfilled.

If you don't know the fulfillment then just the scripture that you believe to be Messianic (of or pertaining to the Messiah).

I gave them 2 times, let me know if you want me to give them a third time.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

 

[TweetyBird]

If the law was given to Israel My Sinai then why how is it that before the Israelites came to Sinai they understood the Sabbath to be obligatory upon them?

They were not given the Sabbath until Mt Sinai. No one kept the Sabbath until God gave it as a sign to Israel.

In being obliged to gather every Friday a double portion of manna in preparation for the Sabbath, when none would fall, the sacred nature of the day of rest was continually impressed upon them. And when some of the people went out on the Sabbath to gather manna, the Lord asked, “How long refuse ye to keep My commandments and My laws?”

Ex 16
4 Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

Ex 16 is the first time the Sabbath was given. More commandments were given for the keeping of the Sabbath later.

The covenant made with Israel in Mt Horeb was the old covenant sealed with blood of bullocks. The new covenant, though made before with Adam, was sealed by the blood of Christ. The underlying principle of the ten commandments is supreme love for God and love for one's neighbor as oneself.

There were no new covenant until Christ shed His blood, died, and rose again.

The principle of the 10 commandments to Israel was to love God and their neighbors aka the nation of Israel, not the whole world. Jesus taught a new law of love, a new commandment.

 

[Jacob]

Bs"d

I gave you a list two times already. Do you want it a third time?




And that is where you go wrong.



I can give you messianic prophecies, like I did two times already, but I cannot give you fulfilment, because they are not yet fulfilled.



I gave them 2 times, let me know if you want me to give them a third time.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

I feel you think I am not listening. You are posting actual scriptures that you believe are Messianic prophecies which is either better or more than what is being asked. I have seen lists of verses or scripture even with fulfillment.

Think of the Torah. What would happen if we, Israel, disobeyed? As for Yeshua, Moses prophesied of His coming. I see prophetic fulfillment in each of these. In the case of the first mentioned here, this is taking the view that it was more than a warning, that it would happen when we disobeyed.

I am a Jew, circumcised and of Israel as I understand it (no paperwork, I observe the Torah but have never been to Israel, observing the feasts in the United States, where I am a citizen). I am also still a Christian, so I know about some Messianic prophecies. We don't all point to the same ones. Not all prophecies or scripture thought to be Messianic prophecies are Messianic prophecies. But we need to start somewhere to see if there has been any fulfillment or what it is.

 

[HisServant]

Bs"d

What's the use of heaving the law "written on your heart" if you don't do the law??


"One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination."
Prov 28:9

BS'd... because there are a million interpretations of just what the law supposedly is. Who am I supposed to believe.. YOU? a Rabbi? a Preacher? the Pope? fat chance. God instilled the Holy Spirit in his children so we know those people are peddling BS.

 

[ThreeAngels]

I feel you think I am not listening. You are posting actual scriptures that you believe are Messianic prophecies which is either better or more than what is being asked. I have seen lists of verses or scripture even with fulfillment.

Think of the Torah. What would happen if we, Israel, disobeyed? As for Yeshua, Moses prophesied of His coming. I see prophetic fulfillment in each of these. In the case of the first mentioned here, this is taking the view that it was more than a warning, that it would happen when we disobeyed.

I am a Jew, circumcised and of Israel as I understand it (no paperwork, I observe the Torah but have never been to Israel, observing the feasts in the United States, where I am a citizen). I am also still a Christian, so I know about some Messianic prophecies. We don't all point to the same ones. Not all prophecies or scripture thought to be Messianic prophecies are Messianic prophecies. But we need to start somewhere to see if there has been any fulfillment or what it is.

All that are Christ’s are “Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” Galatians 3:29. The ritual law has served its purpose of pointing to the one Sacrifice that could alone atone for sin. Henceforth it is no longer binding. This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ “took ... out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” Colossians 2:14.

 

[AntQuick]

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

 

[AntQuick]

The law has not passed, only, you are no longer condemned to death by it, but have found propition in christ for breaking it....now, as Paul says, "I did not know lust until I read the commandment, thall shall not covet". The law is there to show you that, basically, it cannot be fulfilled. It's impossible. And therefore to bring us under subjection to god, knowing that without him we are slaves to sin, and punishable by death. "Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty".
Thinking that the law has no meaning or is done away with, is a mis reading my friend, and damnable blasphemy

 

[TweetyBird]

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

The Law was fulfilled, completely. The Heaven and earth are going to pass away, as prophesied. It's set in stone :readthis:

 

[TweetyBird]

The law has not passed, only, you are no longer condemned to death by it, but have found propition in christ for breaking it....now, as Paul says, "I did not know lust until I read the commandment, thall shall not covet". The law is there to show you that, basically, it cannot be fulfilled. It's impossible. And therefore to bring us under subjection to god, knowing that without him we are slaves to sin, and punishable by death. "Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty".
Thinking that the law has no meaning or is done away with, is a mis reading my friend, and damnable blasphemy

The Law of Moses cannot be changed to "no more condemnation". That is the basis of the Law of Moses. If one is going to keep it, then one will be condemned by it, not freed from it in Christ. Even the Jews do not keep the Law of Moses - because they cannot.

 

[AntQuick]

That is the basis of our faith, friend, that we are indeed saved from death by Christ.

 

[TweetyBird]

That is the basis of our faith, friend, that we are indeed saved from death by Christ.

We are saved from the Law itself, because it was death to every man.