Has the Law been done away with?

[Elia]

If you preach observing special days as obedience to Christ, and circumcision of the flesh, etc; then you are a bitter root that can defile many.

Bs"d

Observing special days and male-circumcision is not obedience to Christ, it is obedience to the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!”
Joshua 24:14

 

[beameup]

Bs"d

What's the use of heaving the law "written on your heart" if you don't do the law??

You do not have the LAW written on your heart. There is no "sacrifice for (personal) sin" as the Law of Moses cannot be practiced, as the Temple does not exist. You are "dead in your sins".

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. - Jeremiah 31:33

 

[Elia]

You have no idea what it means that Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets.

Bs"d

Well, at least we know what it does NOT mean. It does NOT mean that he abolished the law.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven"
Matthew 5


"One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination."
Prov 28:9

 

[Elia]

I have explained this to your before in detail. You are stumped.

The only reason Paul circumcised Timothy is so that Timothy could go around the Jews and write scriptures..to be a help to Paul. The Jews would NOT allow an uncircumcised person to associate with them. They would NOT allow that because they were in falseness, just as you are.

Bs"d

You say that the Jews who were observing the laws of God were in falseness. You say that the Christians who have thrown all the laws overboard and replaced them with paganism, are not in falseness.

It's the world upside down.

"But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil."
Ecc 12:12-14, New American Standard Bible

 

[beameup]

Bs"d

You say that the Jews who were observing the laws of God were in falseness. You say that the Christians who have thrown all the laws overboard and replaced them with paganism, are not in falseness.

It's the world upside down.

NEWSFLASH: It has been your missionary commission to be a light unto the Gentiles. You have had almost 2,000 years to spread your NoHide Laws to the Gentiles. Nobody I know, has a clue about those "Laws".
Put up or shut up.

 

[Elia]

The old law has been done away with and there is a new law.

The new law is the old law with some changes, see Hebrews 7:12.

Bs"d

No changes possible:

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven"
Matthew 5

 

[Alaya]

This prophecy from the Prophets has not been fulfilled:

Zechariah 14:16-19 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.​

LUKE 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until the time of John. Since that time the Kingdom of God is being preached and everyone is forcing 'their' way into it.

 

[Alaya]

LUKE 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until the time of John. Since that time the Kingdom of God is being preached and everyone is forcing 'their' way into it.

It is indeed a prophecy, yet to be fulfilled.

 

[Elia]

LUKE 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until the time of John.

Bs"d

You forgot the verse that came right after it:

"16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail."
Luke 16



“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven"
Matthew 5

 

[Elia]

I don't believe Paul was contradicting Jesus Tambora.

Bs"d

Well, it sure looks like it...


"One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination."
Prov 28:9

 

[Elia]

Acts 3:18 NASB - 18 "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

Bs"d

God never said that the christ would suffer.

"But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil."
Ecc 12:12-14, New American Standard Bible

 

[beameup]

Bs"d

God never said that the christ would suffer.

Then why did your pre-70 A.D. sages believe in Mashiach ben Yossef, "the suffering servant"? :duh:

 

[Elia]

It is good to obey God's commands found in the Law, that is, to observe the Law or observe Torah, because Torah or God's Law, the Law, is good.

Bs"d

Of course it is good to do the law of God. You got to have a hole in your head to think that it is good to throw the law overboard and replace it with paganism.

Salvation is not by works. Justification is by faith. We are not justified by the works of the Law.

Some NT writers seem to differ:

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
James 2

 

[Elia]

The law has been done away with

Bs"d

You'll be called "the least" in the kingdom of heaven:

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven"
Matthew 5


"One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination."
Prov 28:9

 

[Elia]

The Law of the 10 commandments -referred to by Jesus in Matthew 5:17,18-
is binding on every human being as it ever has . However the ceremonial law was only meant to point to the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world and it has ended.

Bs"d

4. Is there a difference between Moses' Laws and God's Laws according to Jesus and the writings of Paul?

No, there is no difference. What you have to keep in mind is that there is no "law of Moses", what there is are many laws of God, given through Moses. Therefore it is called "law of Moses", but it is the law of God.

Here are some examples: "Now Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: 3 Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. 4 Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 5 the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 6 the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 7 and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you."
Lev 11

So you see that the law about not eating pork is given by God, but given to the Israelites by Moses and Aaron, therefore it is called the law of Moses, but it is the law of God.

Another one:

"Then Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel, saying:
‘When a woman gives birth and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean for seven days, as in the days of her menstruation she shall be unclean. 3 On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised."
Lev 12

There are hundreds more examples like this in the Torah, the five books of Moses.

The 10 commandments were given straight by God to the Israelites. Because the Israelites were very afraid, the rest came through Moses.

In the NT no difference is made between the 10 commandments and the law of Moses.

When the Christian messiah speaks about "the law" he means the five books of Moses, containing all 613 commandments.

The Jewish division of the Tanach, the Hebrew Bible, is in three parts: The Torah, (T) the prophets, (in Hebrew: nevi'iem, the N) and the writings, (in Hebrew Chetuviem, the Ch, making for the acronym "Tanach")

The Torah are the five books of Moses. The prophets are the prophetic books, the big and small prophets, and the writings are books like Ruth, Esther, Proverbs, etc, and that section begins with the Psalms.

And we see that in the NT that exact same division is made, when it is said: "Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
Luke 24:44

So here "the law of Moses" means the first five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, which include the 10 commandments.

When the question is asked, "What is the first commandment?", not a commandment from the 10 commandments is given, but from the law of Moses:

"Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?”
29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Mark 12

"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." is Deut 6:4, and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" is Lev 19:18, both from the law of Moses, not from the 10 commandments.

So no difference is made.


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Elia]

Then why did your pre-70 A.D. sages believe in Mashiach ben Yossef, "the suffering servant"? :duh:

Bs"d

Ask them.

But I go by the Tanach, and not like you by pre-70 A.D. sages.


"One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination."
Prov 28:9

 

[Elia]

Moot point, no one on TOL has ever been subject to the Law of Moses given to Israel.

Bs"d

Every Jew is subject to the 613 commandments.

The Gentiles are subjected to the seven Noachide commandments:


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Elia]

How come the 10 commandments were given only to the nation of Israel under the old covenant and not to the Gentiles or other nations of the world?

Bs"d

The Torah was offered to all the nations of the world. All the nations said: "Thanks, but no thanks. we like our paganism better." Just like the Christians are doing right now.

Only the Jews accepted the Torah:

"So Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before them all these words which Y-H-W-H commanded him. 8 Then all the people answered together and said, “All that Y-H-W-H has spoken we will do.”
Ex 19


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Elia]

Stoning to death - are you for or against it? You said the Law was good - just wondering if stoning people to death is a good thing.

Bs"d

Everything that God commands is good. VERY good.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!”
Joshua 24:14

 

[beameup]

Bs"d

Ask them.

But I go by the Tanach, and not like you by pre-70 A.D. sages.

Nonsense Pinocchio, you go by your beloved Talmud.
The "Talmud" was created as a response to God's destruction of your entire religious system of Judaism by making it impossible to obey Moses, because He destroyed your Temple and scattered everyone to the "four-winds".

:readthis:
Now, how about the 2,000 years you've had to be a "light unto
the Gentiles" by teaching them your 7 Laws of Noah???