Nang
TOL Subscriber
You are disgusting and you have been reported . .
ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal
- Thread starter Nang
- Start date
- Status
You are disgusting and you have been reported . .
Last edited:
Sonnet
New member
PPS, I am merely asking for a specific example of articular 'all' - that's all. I'm not saying you are wrong.
So where exactly?
Sonnet
New member
For clarification of the extent of 'God's abundant provision of grace' we might look (yet again) to John 3:14-15:
"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."
Whether they (those bitten and in need of a cure) look or not, provision is made for them. So when we read:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
- we may understand it in the sense of the same provision. Paul's use of 'all people' in v.19 does not sit with your theology at all and there is nothing in 1 Cor 15:22 about any limitation placed on that provision.
Where in what translations? Some translaters don't know how to translate "all". The holy spirit does but only tells the believers. Thats why you dont know.
Sonnet
New member
So all the translators and those that do not see (so far anyway) any distinction regarding anarthrous/articular 'all' are actually unbelievers in your view - even if they might claim belief?
Sonnet
New member
Romans 5 in the Greek.
Sonnet
New member
Like Matthew 13:11ff?
Grace is conditional.
Unless predetermined and willed by the Eternal Father it is neither granted nor applied. Grace is therefore both subject and conditional.
This unconditional nonsense has been repeated in creeds for hundreds of years. It saddens me when people just repeat these things without a moment's hesitation or thought.
Unless predetermined and willed by the Eternal Father it is neither granted nor applied. Grace is therefore both subject and conditional.
This unconditional nonsense has been repeated in creeds for hundreds of years. It saddens me when people just repeat these things without a moment's hesitation or thought.
If you say "all" are the sheep then you can't read greek.
THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS
Michael Jeshurun
A sheep CANNOT become a goat and neither can a goat become a sheep!
THEY'RE BORN THAT WAY!
He that hath ears to ear let him hear!
NO MAN will thirst for Christ unless he is one of God’s sheep! Jesus said unto the unbelieving Jews – “Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life”. And He tells them why – “But ye believe not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP”! [John 5:40 & 10:26]
“The Lord did not say “Ye are not of My sheep because ye believe not,” but, “Ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep.” Man always turns the things of God upside down. When he comes to something in the Word which is peculiarly distasteful, instead of meekly submitting to it and receiving it in simple faith because God says it, he resorts to every imaginable device to make it mean something else.
Here Christ is not only charging these Jews with unbelief, but He also explains WHY faith had not been granted to them — they were not “of His sheep”: they were not among the favored number of God’s elect.
So when WE go forth and preach, we preach not with a confidence in either our eloquence or convincing skills, but in the Word of the Lord Jesus who said - “Everyone that is OF THE TRUTH heareth My voice”! [John 18:37] i.e. EVERYONE who BELONGS TO THE TRUTH, who are the sheep!
These ‘sheep’ and only these will hear, understand, repent and believe!
The rest can only hear, despise, wonder and perish! [Acts 13:41] For they are goats to whom it is not divinely and sovereignly ‘given’ to believe! [Mark 4:11,12]
These sheep are the same ones spoken of in Acts 13:48. There we read - "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed"!
Every artifice of human ingenuity has been employed to blunt the sharp edge of this Scripture and to explain away the obvious meaning of these words, but it has been employed in vain, though nothing will ever be able to reconcile this and similar passages to the mind of the natural man. "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed."
Here we learn four things:
First, that believing is the consequence AND NOT THE CAUSE of God’s decree.
Second, that a LIMITED NUMBER only are "ordained to eternal life," for if all men without exception were thus ordained by God, then the words "as many as are a meaningless qualification.
Third, that this "ordination" of God is not to mere external privileges but to "eternal life," not to service but to SALVATION ITSELF.
Fourth, that ALL—"as many as," NOT ONE LESS—who are thus ordained by God to eternal life WILL most certainly believe.
The comments of the beloved Spurgeon on the above passage are well worthy of our notice. Said he -
"Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste time in answering them. I read: ‘As many as were ordained to eternal life believed’, and I shall not twist the text but shall glorify the grace of God by ascribing to that grace the faith of every man.
Is it not God who gives the disposition to believe? If men are disposed to have eternal life, does not He—in every case—dispose them? Is it wrong for God to give grace? If it be right for Him to give it, is it wrong for Him to PURPOSE to give it? Would you have Him give it by accident? If it is right for Him to purpose to give grace today, it was right for Him to purpose it before today—and, since He changes not—from eternity."
The gift of understanding and of faith is proper to the elect, and all the rest are blinded through the just judgment of God.
Only the blind asks the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
like you.
Stop asking !
Sonnet
New member
If you say "all" are the sheep then you can't read greek.
THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS
Michael Jeshurun
A sheep CANNOT become a goat and neither can a goat become a sheep!
THEY'RE BORN THAT WAY!
He that hath ears to ear let him hear!
NO MAN will thirst for Christ unless he is one of God’s sheep! Jesus said unto the unbelieving Jews – “Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life”. And He tells them why – “But ye believe not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP”! [John 5:40 & 10:26]
“The Lord did not say “Ye are not of My sheep because ye believe not,” but, “Ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep.” Man always turns the things of God upside down. When he comes to something in the Word which is peculiarly distasteful, instead of meekly submitting to it and receiving it in simple faith because God says it, he resorts to every imaginable device to make it mean something else.
Here Christ is not only charging these Jews with unbelief, but He also explains WHY faith had not been granted to them — they were not “of His sheep”: they were not among the favored number of God’s elect.
So when WE go forth and preach, we preach not with a confidence in either our eloquence or convincing skills, but in the Word of the Lord Jesus who said - “Everyone that is OF THE TRUTH heareth My voice”! [John 18:37] i.e. EVERYONE who BELONGS TO THE TRUTH, who are the sheep!
These ‘sheep’ and only these will hear, understand, repent and believe!
The rest can only hear, despise, wonder and perish! [Acts 13:41] For they are goats to whom it is not divinely and sovereignly ‘given’ to believe! [Mark 4:11,12]
These sheep are the same ones spoken of in Acts 13:48. There we read - "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed"!
Every artifice of human ingenuity has been employed to blunt the sharp edge of this Scripture and to explain away the obvious meaning of these words, but it has been employed in vain, though nothing will ever be able to reconcile this and similar passages to the mind of the natural man. "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed."
Here we learn four things:
First, that believing is the consequence AND NOT THE CAUSE of God’s decree.
Second, that a LIMITED NUMBER only are "ordained to eternal life," for if all men without exception were thus ordained by God, then the words "as many as are a meaningless qualification.
Third, that this "ordination" of God is not to mere external privileges but to "eternal life," not to service but to SALVATION ITSELF.
Fourth, that ALL—"as many as," NOT ONE LESS—who are thus ordained by God to eternal life WILL most certainly believe.
The comments of the beloved Spurgeon on the above passage are well worthy of our notice. Said he -
"Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste time in answering them. I read: ‘As many as were ordained to eternal life believed’, and I shall not twist the text but shall glorify the grace of God by ascribing to that grace the faith of every man.
Is it not God who gives the disposition to believe? If men are disposed to have eternal life, does not He—in every case—dispose them? Is it wrong for God to give grace? If it be right for Him to give it, is it wrong for Him to PURPOSE to give it? Would you have Him give it by accident? If it is right for Him to purpose to give grace today, it was right for Him to purpose it before today—and, since He changes not—from eternity."
Matthew 10:5a & 16
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions......“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Upon what?
Which it is.
There is no such thing as The Creator's grace that is subjective or contingent upon the creature.
Heh . . You criticize those who HAVE studied the early church fathers, while you refuse to read or consider them, without a moment's hesitation or thought.
There is good reason unconditional grace is found in the Reformed Creeds and Confessions, for they are founded upon the Holy Scriptures that reveals the gospel of grace.
You simply glorify man when you deny that salvation and grace is all the gift of Sovereign God.
Cross Reference
New member
"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." James 4:6 (KJV)
What is that to the unregenerate or the born again, for that matter, that God might give His grace? Unmerited, you say?
What is that to the unregenerate or the born again, for that matter, that God might give His grace? Unmerited, you say?
Sonnet
New member
If you say "all" are the sheep then you can't read greek.
THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS
Michael Jeshurun
A sheep CANNOT become a goat and neither can a goat become a sheep!
THEY'RE BORN THAT WAY!
He that hath ears to ear let him hear!
NO MAN will thirst for Christ unless he is one of God’s sheep! Jesus said unto the unbelieving Jews – “Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life”. And He tells them why – “But ye believe not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP”! [John 5:40 & 10:26]
“The Lord did not say “Ye are not of My sheep because ye believe not,” but, “Ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep.” Man always turns the things of God upside down. When he comes to something in the Word which is peculiarly distasteful, instead of meekly submitting to it and receiving it in simple faith because God says it, he resorts to every imaginable device to make it mean something else.
Here Christ is not only charging these Jews with unbelief, but He also explains WHY faith had not been granted to them — they were not “of His sheep”: they were not among the favored number of God’s elect.
Jesus does not say that they cannot believe. If we continue with the analogy then we would say that they (the Jews) are following another shepherd. The fact that they can become his sheep is evidenced by:
v.9
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.a They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
vv.37-38
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
Jesus persists with them and enjoins them to believe in His works. And we know that Jesus was not DISINGENUOUS.
No mention of sheep here.
Well this is significant:
v.40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you
Jesus described Judas as a sheep, of course.
No goats mentioned there - but what is interesting is that Judas is one of those given knowledge of the Kingdom of heaven.
10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
Sonnet
New member
Was Judas given knowledge of the secrets of the Kingdom of God - yes or no?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
There are no "secrets" of the Kingdom of God. That is Gnostic thinking.
Judas was never regenerated or indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ. He was never spiritually raised to life, and thus never comprehended the purpose and gospel of Jesus.
Sonnet
New member
Mark 4:10-11
When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables."
Matthew 13:11
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."
theophilus
Well-known member
The twelve apostles included "Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him" (Matt. 10:4).
God can use even an apostate like Judas to teach us some important lessons.
Judas is history's greatest human tragedy. He had opportunities and privileges known only to the other disciples, but he turned from them to pursue a course of destruction. Yet even from his foolishness we can learn some important lessons.
Judas, for example, is the world's greatest example of lost opportunity. He ministered for three years with Jesus Himself but was content merely to associate with Him, never submitting to Him in saving faith. Millions of others have followed his example by hearing the gospel and associating with Christians, yet rejecting Christ. Tragically, like Judas, once death comes they too are damned for all eternity.
Judas is also the world's greatest example of wasted privileges. He could have had the riches of an eternal inheritance but instead chose thirty pieces of silver. In that respect he is also the greatest illustration of the destructiveness and damnation greed can bring. He did an unthinkable thing, yet he has many contemporary counterparts in those who place wealth and pleasure above godliness.
On the positive side, Judas is the world's greatest illustration of the forbearing, patient love of God. Knowing what Judas would do, Jesus tolerated him for three years. Beyond that, He constantly reached out to him and even called him "friend" after his kiss of betrayal (Matt. 26:50).
If you've ever been betrayed by a friend, you know the pain it can bring. But the Lord's pain was compounded many times over because He knew He would be betrayed and because the consequences were so serious. Yet He endured the pain because He loved Judas and knew that His own betrayal was a necessary part of the redemptive plan.
The sins that destroyed Judas are common sins that you must avoid at all costs! Use every opportunity and privilege God gives you, and never take advantage of His patience.
Dr. John A. MacArthur - 2016.
Sonnet
New member
Indeed - Luke 22:20-21
- Status