The choice being offered in lieu of the inevitable death of all men, is eternal life in the presence of the Creator, in whose presence we were created to be. The obstacle to that desirable state is our sin or falling short. Part of the overall scheme, according to my take on it, is that man was created in the likeness of the Creator and thus will always exist somewhere. Our choice then, to choose not to be with the Creator, is to wind up in the default location, as we must be located somewhere. I call it GOD's junkyard. A junkyard is where items are placed which no longer measure up to the purpose for which they were intended. Hades is temporary, Gehenna is final.
Doesn't cover the obvious imbalance of life spans, plus the term dead/death/died and resurrection isn't about physical death and rebirth by altering natural laws like Nicodemus was confused about, Jonah in whale is Romans seven, like Paul was crying out for help from his own flesh that was made rebellious by the Laws demands on it.
That is the point of all scripture, an inward tale that you have been taught was a struggle between nations and ethnic privilege, which is debunked in Galatians 4:24-28 rightly divides it's intent as does 2Cor 3:6.
It's stated in Job that God's will/desire can't be altered or changed, but like all doctrines and religious assertions on can find a contradictory passage to make one think God's Will can be overruled by mans free will which is concerning Romans seven again, and the will and power of sin in us while under its mental deception caused by religious hypnosis/spell from a Book.
I have encountered so-called Christian Universalists also. They seem to be good people. When asked whether they believe that we'll all be sharing eternal life with Hitler, or murder victims with their murderers, they act like I've got a problem with forgiveness. I have no response.
I don't think the Timothy verse means "God's will" in the sense of Divine Providence, but what He desires.
Doesn't cover the obvious imbalance of life spans, plus the term dead/death/died and resurrection isn't about physical death and rebirth by altering natural laws like Nicodemus was confused about, Jonah in whale is Romans seven, like Paul was crying out for help from his own flesh that was made rebellious by the Laws demands on it.
That is the point of all scripture, an inward tale that you have been taught was a struggle between nations and ethnic privilege, which is debunked in Galatians 4:24-28 rightly divides it's intent as does 2Cor 3:6.
It's stated in Job that God's will/desire can't be altered or changed, but like all doctrines and religious assertions on can find a contradictory passage to make one think God's Will can be overruled by mans free will which is concerning Romans seven again, and the will and power of sin in us while under its mental deception caused by religious hypnosis/spell from a Book.
We're hardly free agents given the parameters of how we're designed and our reactions to stimuli etc. Love can't be coerced and fear doesn't work if love is meant to be freely given and mean anything, yet fear is what many a church tries to 'instill' in people in order to be 'saved'. Wouldn't that ironically turn many a pew warmer into a 'puppet'?
I don't happen to believe that hell is a part of the Gospel message, and rarely speak of hell unless it's a part of a discussion on a message board. If people come to God out of fear, they won't find Him.
You don't see anything at all metaphorical about that? If not, are all those who drowned residing in some sort of hell right now or were they just literally wiped out?
No, I think the flood actually happened. I believe they will all be raised for the Judgment and I trust the Judge of the whole earth to do right. I have some thoughts about what that would be, and it rests on the belief that little is expected from those who have been given little.
You're putting a very human perspective on that I think. I've loved people but it's only the darkest realm of the psyche that would wish harm on those that don't return it.
We were created in the image of God. God loves, desires, regrets, and weeps.....we are not unlike HIM, so that "human perspective" actually gives us insight into our Creator. What you say is true which shows that God doesn't wish any to perish. It grieves Him that we refuse to come to Him for eternal LIFE. It's a free gift and we still won't come.
It's at times like this that I look at the context, and even (at times) to Young's. God does will...He does desire which is why Paul says we are to pray.
1 Timothy 2:1-4YLT
I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men: for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity, for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour, who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
Better yet, I see how Paul uses the same word. He speaks of will as desire and separate from doing.
Philippians 2:13KJV
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
You forget that when Jesus Returns, all shall bow to Him, and also atheists will know He does exist and that God exists, and that everything in the Bible is truth. All men on Earth at that time shall believe in Jesus. Those who call upon His Name then shall be saved. How can anyone not call upon His Name then, seeing Him with their own eyes? Perhaps some will not call upon His Name? Only God knows what the future holds, so we must wait and let things play out because we cannot GUESS what His Future holds for us, living or dead, or those in hell. Just something to think about.
Much Love & Care To My Brethren, Male and Female, In Jesus Christ,
The waiting place of the dead has many names ie. Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, Gehenn and the Grave ....Hebrew and Greek....and depending on use.
The use of the word hell in that text isn't talking about eternal hellfire. More likely it's speaking of the place of Luke 10.
The waiting place of the dead has many names ie. Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, Gehenn and the Grave ....Hebrew and Greek....and depending on use.
The use of the word hell in that text isn't talking about eternal hellfire. More likely it's speaking of the place of Luke 10.
"Will" from Strong's Numbers in the KJV translation
G2309
θέλω, ἐθέλω
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).
Total KJV occurrences: 210
1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4. Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 ISV This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who wants all people to be saved and to come to know the truth fully.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 ESV This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 NLT This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4. who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 NKJV For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
It's clear that God wants and desires all men to be saved, but God is not going to force salvation, and this has nothing to do with universal salvation.
If you have an ID and license of privilege issued by this world then you never left actually, you're still a created person on a piece of paper and OZ or mid stream won't wake you up from that dream.
We are never to think of God as wishing or striving to do what He knows He will not do. For God to do otherwise would be for Him to act foolishly. Since Scripture tells us that some men are going to be lost, 2 Peter 3:9, the verse of 1 Tim. 2:4 cannot mean that God is earnestly wishing or striving to save each and every person. For if it were God's will that every individual of mankind should be saved, then not one soul could be lost, "For who hath resisted his will?" (Rom. 9:19).
Rather, verses such as these teach us that God does not delight in the sufferings of His creatures any more than a human father delights in the punishment that he sometimes must inflict upon his son.
On the will of God:
Spoiler
The word "will" is used in different senses in Scripture as in our everyday conversation. It is sometimes used in the sense of "desire" or "purpose." A righteous judge does not will (desire) that anyone should be hanged or sentenced to prison, yet he wills (pronounces sentence) that the guilty person shall be punished. In the same sense and for sufficient reasons, a man may will to have a limb removed, or an eye taken out, even though he certainly does not desire it.
In other words, in some sense we have a will that desires this or that which often is not going to be realized, yet we also have a will of this or that, which we make certain comes to pass. Theologians distinguish between these two "wills" of God revealed in Scripture as God’s preceptive will and His decretive will. The decretive will relates to the futurition of things, or what shall come to pass from God's perspective. One uses the term, decretive will, properly to refer to volition in God, and this is His eternal and unchangeable decree. God's preceptive will relates to the obligation of things, a prescription or precept, if you will, or what should come to pass from man's perspective, that is God’s revealed will to mankind in the form of a command—precepts approved or disapproved—that God wills for man to do.
I like to think of these concepts in a very simplified manner not to be taken too far, that is best described as God does not always get what He preceptively wills, but He will always gets what He decretively wills. The key here is not to go off thinking God actually has two wills, as if He is double-minded.
We should also note that a positive decretive will cannot consist with a negative preceptive will; that is, God cannot decree to make men sin. But a negative decretive will may consist with an affirmative preceptive will; for example, God may command men to repent and believe, and yet, for wise reasons known only to Him, abstain from giving them repentance.
As an example from Scripture, God willed preceptively that Abraham should gird himself to sacrifice his son Isaac, although decretively He willed to preserve him in life. But if we wish to speak accurately, the preceptive and decretive "wills" are not two different wills, but only a single will which deals with men in different ways and manifests itself variously. By one and the same will God manifests Himself differently to Abraham. First He commands him to sacrifice Isaac, although by the same will He has decreed to preserve Isaac in life. Next He revealed to Abraham, what He had not revealed to him in the first instance, that He would preserve Isaac. By the first act of His will towards Abraham He declares His lordship over the life of men and at the same time exacts obedience from Abraham. For this act the will of God is conceived by us God's preceptive will. But in the second act He revealed His decree and this act we call this His decretive will.
In regard to 1 Timothy 2:4,6, "all" is used in various senses. Often it means, not all men without exception, but all men without distinction—Jews and Gentiles, bond and free, men and women, rich and poor. And in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 it clearly is used in that sense. Used in this sense the word "all" has no reference to individuals, but simply to mankind in general.
When it was said of John the Baptist that "There went out unto him all the country of Judea, and all they of Jerusalem; and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins," (Mark 1:5), we know that not each and every individual did so respond.
We read that after Peter and John had healed the lame man at the door of the temple, "all men glorified God for that which was done" (Acts 4:21). Again, we know this does not mean each and every person.
Jesus told his disciples that they would be "hated of all men" for His name's sake, (Luke 21:17). Supra. And when Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself," (John 12:32), Our Lord certainly did not mean that every individual of mankind would be so drawn. Rather what He did mean was that Jews and Gentiles, men of all nations and races, would be drawn to Him. And that is what we see is actually happening.
Likewise, in 1 Corinthians 15:22 we read, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be make alive." This verse is often quoted to prove unlimited or universal atonement. Rather the honest reader understands this to mean "For as all born in Adam die, so also all born again in Christ shall be alive."
Likewise, in 1 Corinthians 15:22 we read, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be make alive." This verse is often quoted to prove unlimited or universal atonement. Rather the honest reader understands this to mean "For as all born in Adam die, so also all born again in Christ shall be alive."
Can't get around that ID slave mark though, one can twist scripture to make the word all to mean just a certain percentage of the cosmic lottery, but you're artifice of the worldly kind is witnessed to every day you reach in the purse or wallet to use that permission slip to exist in this artificial world system.
Can't get around that ID slave mark though, one can twist scripture to make the word all to mean just a certain percentage of the cosmic lottery, but you're artifice of the worldly kind is witnessed to every day you reach in the purse or wallet to use that permission slip to exist in this artificial world system.
You have been shown the truth and can either receive it or reject it. God made His Son to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV). His righteousness is available by the faith of Jesus Christ and is unto all and upon all them that believe. It's time you stop with the "what about" and believe 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. It's your only hope (Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV, Titus 1:2 KJV).
I voted for 'unsure', but I think if I could change it I would change it to 'no' because your poll question was about proof. I think I can say that the verse alone isn't proof. However, on the overall question of universalism I am unsure. I think that if God is love it would require that the door of heaven always remains open. On the flip side, there are some verses, like some in Revelation, that indicate in no uncertain terms that there will be some that will never gain eternal life. I refrain from a firm declaration but choose to have hope that God will never lock the door permanently because of his love for his creation.
Can't get around that ID slave mark though, one can twist scripture to make the word all to mean just a certain percentage of the cosmic lottery, but you're artifice of the worldly kind is witnessed to every day you reach in the purse or wallet to use that permission slip to exist in this artificial world system.
The last to know will be those who think they do.
:idunno: Genesis 12:3 KJV, Exodus 19:5 KJVYou have been shown the truth and can either receive it or reject it. God made His Son to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV). His righteousness is available by the faith of Jesus Christ and is unto all and upon all them that believe. It's time you stop with the "what about" and believe 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. It's your only hope (Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV, Titus 1:2 KJV).
Well thanks for your presumptions and everything but a person can believe and have doubts over doctrine in case that's something you haven't encountered before...
If you want to write all unbelievers off to 'hell' then you have at it.
