"[God] will have all men to be saved..."

[steko]

Clarify:

Does everyone get an absolute choice in this whereby there's no doubt whatsoever what it is they're choosing. By that I mean, unequivocal certainty that they either choose one way or the other and not just 'finding faith' in a handful of years on this plain before the inevitability of physical death?

I can't see that big.

One thing I know, is that in searching the various presentations of religions and philosophies being offered, there was one which I could not tolerate....the message of the cross.
I thought it was stupid and 'Christians' were settling for a psychological crutch to avoid reality. It was the last thing I wanted.
After years of psychotropics, meditations, yoga and the like.....one night high on fresh peyote cactus, I turned to a blank wall and said, "Jesus, if you're real, if you're really there, if you're who 'Christians' have claimed you are, if you are who you claim to be in the Bible, then please help me." I went to sleep with that request.
A day or so later, my wife asked me to read 1 Corinthians 1 and 2.
I did, and I found the words of Paul which placed me in a deep quandary. He said, in so many words, that by man's wisdom GOD could not be known, that the natural man could not receive the things of the Spirit of GOD, that the preaching of the cross, to them that are perishing, is foolishness, but was in reality the power and salvation of GOD. I had considered it foolishness, but suddenly a thought began to grow in my mind.....'Maybe I'm the fool', maybe I've got all of this upside down, maybe there's something I can't see because I'm blocked from it."
Some days later, I had the impulse to go to a local church that a neighbor of mine attended.
No one knew I was coming, only two people there even knew me and no one knew what I had been struggling with in my mind.
A missionary preacher was there preaching for that one morning.
He preached 1Co 1 and 2. He had no idea I was there, but the words he spoke were directly to me. There is no doubt in my mind about this.
I had sincerely put forth the questions to this 'Jesus' in the aloneness of the night. He was now talking to me directly. I received Him as my Savior and I tangibly felt the load of my guilt/sin debt lifted from me.
He has made Himself real to me for thirty-five years, now.
That was my choice. I've never regretted making it.

GOD has made Him to be sin, who knew no sin, so that we could be made the righteousness of GOD in Him.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I don't think people are choosing hell. They are choosing idols - lusts of the flesh, lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life (self).

1 Thess. 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;​

They are simply refusing to trust in God. And God says we are without excuse because we were created to know God.

Romans 1:19-20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

So everyone who doesn't believe, or have doubts for whatever reason are intentionally duping themselves in your opinion?

 

[glorydaz]

Clarify:

Does everyone get an absolute choice in this whereby there's no doubt whatsoever what it is they're choosing. By that I mean, unequivocal certainty that they either choose one way or the other and not just 'finding faith' in a handful of years on this plain before the inevitability of physical death?

Artie, you should just admit it. You believe in God, but you don't like the rules He's set up. You want to make sure your life isn't going to have to change....that you won't have to give something up....that you will have some sort of GRACE period just in case. :think:

 

[glorydaz]

So everyone who doesn't believe, or have doubts for whatever reason are intentionally duping themselves in your opinion?

Nope....not what I said and not what I think, either.

 

[heir]

It's the due time message that God will have all men (no distinction/including Gentiles such as we Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV) be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth whereas before (Paul's first sending Acts 26:17 KJV) salvation was sent to these (Acts 13:26 KJV, Galatians 3:29 KJV Romans 1:16 KJV).

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

We know that the above is not universal salvation as there will be some who receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I can't see that big.

One thing I know, is that in searching the various presentations of religions and philosophies being offered, there was one which I could not tolerate....the message of the cross.
I thought it was stupid and 'Christians' were settling for a psychological crutch to avoid reality. It was the last thing I wanted.
After years of psychotropics, meditations, yoga and the like.....one night high on fresh peyote cactus, I turned to a blank wall and said, "Jesus, if you're real, if you're really there, if you're who 'Christians' have claimed you are, if you are who you claim to be in the Bible, then please help me." I went to sleep with that request.
A day or so later, my wife asked me to read 1 Corinthians 1 and 2.
I did, and I found the words of Paul which placed me in a deep quandary. He said, in so many words, that by man's wisdom GOD could not be known, that the natural man could not receive the things of the Spirit of GOD, that the preaching of the cross, to them that are perishing, is foolishness, but was in reality the power and salvation of GOD. I had considered it foolishness, but suddenly a thought began to grow in my mind.....'Maybe I'm the fool', maybe I've got all of this upside down, maybe there's something I can't see because I'm blocked from it."
Some days later, I had the impulse to go to a local church that a neighbor of mine attended.
No one knew I was coming, only two people there even knew me and no one knew what I had been struggling with in my mind.
A missionary preacher was there preaching for that one morning.
He preached 1Co 1 and 2. He had no idea I was there, but the words he spoke were directly to me. There is no doubt in my mind about this.
I had sincerely put forth the questions to this 'Jesus' in the aloneness of the night. He was now talking to me directly. I received Him as my Savior and I tangibly felt the load of my guilt/sin debt lifted from me.
He has made Himself real to me for thirty-five years, now.
That was my choice. I've never regretted making it.

GOD has made Him to be sin, who knew no sin, so that we could be made the righteousness of GOD in Him.

I've no intention of berating your testimony in the slightest and thanks for sharing it.

But let me ask you this. Do you think those who have died and held a similar position to your earlier view had made their bed already and deserve some eternal 'junkyard' fate?

You were fallible, as is everyone else right?

 

[Arthur Brain]

It's the due time message that God will have all men (no distinction/including Gentiles such as we Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV) be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth whereas before (Paul's first sending Acts 26:17 KJV) salvation was sent to these (Acts 13:26 KJV, Galatians 3:29 KJV Romans 1:16 KJV).

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

We know that the above is not universal salvation as there will be some who receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Ultimately what's to stop God from having all people of any time come to a knowledge of the truth? Why would every knee bow and everyone give praise at some point? Praise isn't forced, it can't be.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear All,

Only God knows what is the truth of the matter. Don't wrack your souls or brains about it. It may be that there will be those that God feels should go to the Lake of Fire (our Sun) and burn. Hell is the bottomless pit, the center of our earth, wherein there is molten lava and magma. The earth does have a top and a center, but no bottom. Everyone thinks there are on the top because of gravity. That is how it is symbolically the 'bottomless' pit. That is where souls are sent to go to hell. Hell is not forever though.

Hey, I am getting to points I'd rather not discuss right now, because I have to get offline right now. Don't be wondering about it so much. Those who are good and seek God will fair just fine!! God will decide the drawing line, not us. So, it could be that few shall make it, or that many will make it. It is up to God, not man, so rest in your souls. God is pleased with those who seek Him and they should not worry either way. They will go be with Him.

May God Be With You All!!

Michael

 

[Arthur Brain]

Artie, you should just admit it. You believe in God, but you don't like the rules He's set up. You want to make sure your life isn't going to have to change....that you won't have to give something up....that you will have some sort of GRACE period just in case. :think:

Not interested in any psychic personal angle of yours thanks. If you want to answer on point then please do.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Nope....not what I said and not what I think, either.

Well in that case please don't presume to know what I think either as with your previous. If you can't debate me without recourse to personal imaginings then I'll discourse with those who can do so without.

 

[steko]

I've no intention of berating your testimony in the slightest and thanks for sharing it.

:e4e:

But let me ask you this. Do you think those who have died and held a similar position to your earlier view had made their bed already and deserve some eternal 'junkyard' fate?

I lived in Sicily in 72'. I had been discharged from the USN months before and was waiting for my closest friend to be discharged, as well.
We were going to backpack and travel the world. Ours sights were especially focused on India. He and I had done gobs of LSD together, smoked hashish along with it and had indescribable experiences. Our minds were 'in sync'.
Three days after he was discharged, I found him dead in the bathtub.
I dragged him down the hallway, mouth to mouth, heart pump, everything, but......nothing. He was gone. He was 22.
Do I think that he deserves 'some eternal jukyard fate'? Every spring at some point, I begin crying for no apparent reason and then I remember, "Oh yeah, it's April....Jim."
I often talk to GOD and say, "But what about Jim?. Don't you have a place for him in your goodness?" I always come to the place that say, "I trust you Lord, with Jim, and with all the other souls that I've known in my life, of which I'm not certain." But, I know that GOD is good and GOD is just and He desires all to be saved. As I said, "I can't see that big." I leave it in His hands. Meanwhile, I know that I have been given the ministry of reconciliation, whereby I plead with folks regularly, "We pray you in Christ's sted, please be reconciled to GOD."
I don't know Arthur, but I am sure of the reality of my own experience with GOD through Christ and I have to do what I have found to be the priority of what's in front of me. I don't believe that someone should miss eternity with the Creator, and hold out only because they couldn't be certain of another's status or only because they couldn't find answers to all the questions that one could pose.

You were fallible, as is everyone else right?

I was and I am definitely fallible.
But is it possible to be certain about some things?

 

[glorydaz]

Nope....not what I said and not what I think, either.

Well in that case please don't presume to know what I think either as with your previous. If you can't debate me without recourse to personal imaginings then I'll discourse with those who can do so without.

Debate you? Debate someone with a chip on his shoulder the size of a brick? I simply told you that was not what I said or what I think. Too much for you? Why am I not surprised. :chuckle:

 

[heir]

Ultimately what's to stop God from having all people of any time come to a knowledge of the truth? Why would every knee bow and everyone give praise at some point? Praise isn't forced, it can't be.

First of all, the verse is two fold.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1. salvation and 2. come unto the knowledge of the truth. You must be saved in order to begin to come unto the knowledge of the truth and that is through study (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).

God isn't forcing His will on anyone. His will is that all men be saved but He's left it up to you. He has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV). It's on you to believe the why of the cross; that Christ died for your sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). It is the power of God to save you (Romans 1:16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV).

You have your own will to receive or receive not the love of the truth that you can be saved. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17 KJV). Reconciliation was made 2000 years ago whether you believe it or not (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV). I'm here to tell you that salvation is free unto you by God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV)! Eternal life is the gift of God (Romans 6:23 KJV)! But like any gift, it must be received. If you push away the gift and don't accept the content of the package, it is not in your possession. You have not received it, but rejected it and will perish as a result (2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV).

I'm off to bed. It's very late here.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I lived in Sicily in 72'. I had been discharged from the USN months before and was waiting for my closest friend to be discharged, as well.
We were going to backpack and travel the world. Ours sights were especially focused on India. He and I had done gobs of LSD together, smoked hashish along with it and had indescribable experiences. Our minds were 'in sync'.
Three days after he was discharged, I found him dead in the bathtub.
I dragged him down the hallway, mouth to mouth, heart pump, everything, but......nothing. He was gone. He was 22.
Do I think that he deserves 'some eternal jukyard fate'? Every spring at some point, I begin crying for no apparent reason and then I remember, "Oh yeah, it's April....Jim."
I often talk to GOD and say, "But what about Jim?. Don't you have a place for him in your goodness?" I always come to the place that say, "I trust you Lord, with Jim, and with all the other souls that I've known in my life, of which I'm not certain." But, I know that GOD is good and GOD is just and He desires all to be saved. As I said, "I can't see that big." I leave it in His hands. Meanwhile, I know that I have been given the ministry of reconciliation, whereby I plead with folks regularly, "We pray you in Christ's sted, please be reconciled to GOD."
I don't know Arthur, but I am sure of the reality of my own experience with GOD through Christ and I have to do what I have found to be the priority of what's in front of me. I don't believe that someone should miss eternity with the Creator, and hold out only because they couldn't be certain of another's status or only because they couldn't find answers to all the questions that one could pose.

I really appreciate your forthright honesty on the issue and especially in regards to such difficult and painful memories. I also appreciate your willingness to admit that you actually don't know as oppose to others who are so willing and ready to condemn others as if their fate in "hell" is already signed, sealed and delivered...

In another 'dimension' this could possibly have just as easily been Jim talking about you where you were the one in the bathtub and he was saying similar things as you are now. So, I hope that in the greater scheme of things that the verse in the OP holds true, for so many.

I was and I am definitely fallible.
But is it possible to be certain about some things?

So am I, completely in fact, and on the second then yes also. The sky will continue to be blue when clouds are or aren't covering it and reality TV will still be bloody annoying in general. Other than that...

 

[Arthur Brain]

First of all, the verse is two fold.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1. salvation and 2. come unto the knowledge of the truth. You must be saved in order to begin to come unto the knowledge of the truth and that is through study (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).

God isn't forcing His will on anyone. His will is that all men be saved but He's left it up to you. He has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV). It's on you to believe the why of the cross; that Christ died for your sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). It is the power of God to save you (Romans 1:16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV).

You have your own will to receive or receive not the love of the truth that you can be saved. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17 KJV). Reconciliation was made 2000 years ago whether you believe it or not (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV). I'm here to tell you that salvation is free unto you by God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV)! Eternal life is the gift of God (Romans 6:23 KJV)! But like any gift, it must be received. If you push away the gift and don't accept the content of the package, it is not in your possession. You have not received it, but rejected it and will perish as a result (2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV)

So the verse should have just said 'God will have some' then effectively...

 

[Arthur Brain]

Debate you? Debate someone with a chip on his shoulder the size of a brick? I simply told you that was not what I said or what I think. Too much for you? Why am I not surprised. :chuckle:

Not at all. I'd just as soon debate the topic as oppose to personal stuff or presumptions made on your part as I'd clarified already. If you're willing to do that then fine. Your call.

 

[glorydaz]

So the verse should have just said 'God will have some' then effectively...

No, the word "will" is thelo in the Greek which has more than one meaning. You are trying to make that verse say what it is not saying. You're forcing your meaning on the word "will". That's why one must look at other verses in order to ascertain what is being said there. God's desire is that all men be saved.....God's wish is that all men be saved.

: to will, wish
Original Word: θέλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: theló
Phonetic Spelling: ( eth-el'-o,)
Short Definition: I will, wish, desire
Definition: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.

God designed man to know and love his CREATOR. That is what the verse is saying.

 

[glorydaz]

Not at all. I'd just as soon debate the topic as oppose to personal stuff or presumptions made on your part as I'd clarified already. If you're willing to do that then fine. Your call.

I can't change who I am and won't tiptoe around in fear I'll offend. I was actually trying to be very careful with you....knowing the history we share on here. But, that's about as nice as I get. People share personal things and people might accidentally cross someone's boundaries. :idunno: I was joking a bit, and you took it some other way. It's the subject that interests me and I've been interested in responding to your thoughts on this issue. Hopefully, we can try to stick to that.

 

[Arthur Brain]

No, the word "will" is thelo in the Greek which has more than one meaning. You are trying to make that verse say what it is not saying. You're forcing your meaning on the word "will". That's why one must look at other verses in order to ascertain what is being said there. God's desire is that all men be saved.....God's wish is that all men be saved.

: to will, wish
Original Word: θέλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: theló
Phonetic Spelling: ( eth-el'-o,)
Short Definition: I will, wish, desire
Definition: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.

God designed man to know and love his CREATOR. That is what the verse is saying.

Well, if God 'will have' something then nothing stops that right? If God 'wills' something then the same thing? If God wishes something then...why would God wish something if He couldn't bring it to fruition? In fact what would a 'wish' be to God at all if He's the creator?

An all powerful loving God who can be thwarted by His own creations?

 

[Arthur Brain]

I can't change who I am and won't tiptoe around in fear I'll offend. I was actually trying to be very careful with you....knowing the history we share on here. But, that's about as nice as I get. People share personal things and people might accidentally cross someone's boundaries. :idunno: I was joking a bit, and you took it some other way. It's the subject that interests me and I've been interested in responding to your thoughts on this issue. Hopefully, we can try to stick to that.

No need to worry about being nice or tiptoeing with me GD. I certainly wasn't doing so with you elsewhere and was just saying exactly what I thought. So, with that in mind let's just keep to the topic as it is here.