God Owes Us Big Time

[SOTK]

I believe god feels badly for the earthly, physical situation we're in, I think he created us not knowing the consequences of his actions,
I think god owes us big time.

This statement implies God is stupid. Everything in the universe is balanced. It's amazing to think about how complicated the creation of everything was yet there is an order and balance of things. No Supreme Being could do all of this and yet make mistakes.

You have it wrong, allsmiles. God owes us nothing. We owe Him everything!

 

[Agape4Robin]

This statement implies God is stupid. Everything in the universe is balanced. It's amazing to think about how complicated the creation of everything was yet there is an order and balance of things. No Supreme Being could do all of this and yet make mistakes.

You have it wrong, allsmiles. God owes us nothing. We owe Him everything!

Well said! :bannana:

 

[Lighthouse]

God doesn't owe me a damn thing. None of the crap I've been through is his fault. It's the fault of the human responsible. Sometimes it's me, other times it someone else. But not God's. And every thing He has given me, He gave out of grace. He didn't owe me any of it. But He gave it anyway.

 

[Agape4Robin]

God doesn't owe me a damn thing. None of the crap I've been through is his fault. It's the fault of the human responsible. Sometimes it's me, other times it someone else. But not God's. And every thing He has given me, He gave out of grace. He didn't owe me any of it. But He gave it anyway.

:BRAVO:

 

[Lovejoy]

This may be the most ridiculous, blasphemous statement that I have ever heard.

It is just one more entry into the growing list of statements on TOL meant to inspire non-productive discussion by offending the Christian core of the site. Efforts to annoy and put Christians on the defensive seem par for the course at this point. Allsmiles even admits that it was merely "throwing rocks at the beehive." I tried the exact same technique here just once (making hyperbolic right wing statements to bring out the left) and they nearly choked on the bile they spewed back. It is a ridiculous way to approach conversation.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Hhhhmmmmm.............and I helped to defend against the use of the word, "faggot". I feel like I have egg on my face. Here I was trying to be kind and civil, and then some moron wants to throw rocks at the beehive?

Ugly, ugly people! :sozo2:

 

[Lovejoy]

Hhhhmmmmm.............and I helped to defend against the use of the word, "faggot". I feel like I have egg on my face. Here I was trying to be kind and civil, and then some moron wants to throw rocks at the beehive?

Ugly, ugly people! :sozo2:

I wouldn't sweat it, Robin. Some people (like myself) are inherently gentle, and need to fight that sometimes to get the truth across. Some (perhaps Sozo was the best example) are a bit more caustic and had to fight sometimes to show mercy. Neither makes someone right or wrong, as only Jesus can do that. Threads like this are started to offend, and then the originator backslides into courtesy to cover his tracks. Well, a courteous lie is still a lie, like it or not. The individual is welcome to his opinion, I do not dispute that, but one has to question why the opinion is expressed where it is expressed.

 

[Lighthouse]

And it is because I don't deserve anything God has given me, or done for me, that I owe Him everything.

 

[Agape4Robin]

And it is because I don't deserve anything God has given me, or done for me, that I owe Him everything.

Amen!
Everything I am and everything I have is because of Him!

 

[Lovejoy]

I just want to take this moment to thank everyone for their input.

Just so you understand, some of my posts recently have been rather hostile to the idea of of statements made at TOL that (seem) designed to draw fire from Christians. I do this because I support earnestness. I would rather someone be hot or cold, not lukewarm. I hate arguing with constructs and pretense, and just want open hearts discussing things of the heart. I hope you (and anyone else my posts have been directed at) understand.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Just so you understand, some of my posts recently have been rather hostile to the idea of of statements made at TOL that (seem) designed to draw fire from Christians. I do this because I support earnestness. I would rather someone be hot or cold, not lukewarm. I hate arguing with constructs and pretense, and just want open hearts discussing things of the heart. I hope you (and anyone else my posts have been directed at) understand.

:thumb:

 

[Caledvwlch]

God doesn't owe me a damn thing. None of the crap I've been through is his fault. It's the fault of the human responsible. Sometimes it's me, other times it someone else. But not God's. And every thing He has given me, He gave out of grace. He didn't owe me any of it. But He gave it anyway.

If that be the case, then every blessing and good thing in your life you owe to yourself, but certainly not God. God is either in control, or he's not. You have to pick one.

 

[allsmiles]

All right, saying that "I believe" was going a little far I think. Justin was kind enough to point out the distinction between playing with an idea and postulating a belief, a distinction I should have made right from the beginning. I'm sorry for the confusion and I don't want anyone to think that I'm simply back tracking to cover myself. I don't necessarily believe this, I just wanted an opportunity to see people thinking outside of the box.

Sorry for the confusion.

SOTK, let's get down to business:

This statement implies God is stupid.

Not necessarily, just not wholly perfect.

Everything in the universe is balanced.

Yes and no. There's also a lot of chaos out there. Do you disagree? Do you deny the existence of chaos?

It's amazing to think about how complicated the creation of everything was yet there is an order and balance of things.

I agree with you, the order and balance of things are one of the reasons I believe god is the creator.

No Supreme Being could do all of this and yet make mistakes.

That's a matter of opinion, an opinion formed from your definition of who god is, the definition appears to be the christian god. You forget that according to your representation of the over god, the prime source as it were, we are made in god's image, which I think could very well imply all of the flaws that accompany mankind.

I know, we were created perfect, but how perfect is a being with the capacity to, even unwittingly, rebel against god? According to the christian representation of god, man was created in his image and man was created initially with the ability to rebel and be deceived, which I think could quite possibly imply that your god is just as flawed as we are and therefore capable of anything.

You have it wrong, allsmiles. God owes us nothing. We owe Him everything!

Allegedly. Christians do not have the luxury of extra-biblical evidence to support such a broad claim.

 

[allsmiles]

God doesn't owe me a damn thing. None of the crap I've been through is his fault. It's the fault of the human responsible. Sometimes it's me, other times it someone else. But not God's. And every thing He has given me, He gave out of grace. He didn't owe me any of it. But He gave it anyway.

So you take responsibility for all of your screw ups, but none of your triumphs?

 

[Poly]

If that be the case, then every blessing and good thing in your life you owe to yourself, but certainly not God. God is either in control, or he's not. You have to pick one.

Some parents raise their child to do good things and be responsible. They teach him to be a successful adult, supporting him and helping him through his struggles and always promise to be there for him throughout his life. Let's say this child wins an award and gives a speech where he thanks his parents for everything they've done and says that all the blessings he has he owes to his parents. The child may have put forth the effort in accomplishing the things that have made him successful but realizes that it could never have been done without all that the parents have given to him.

 

[Caledvwlch]

Some parents raise their child to do good things and be responsible. They teach him to be a successful adult, supporting him and helping him through his struggles and always promise to be there for him throughout his life. Let's say this child wins an award and gives a speech where he thanks his parents for everything they've done and says that all the blessings he has he owes to his parents. The child may have put forth the effort in accomplishing the things that have made him successful but realizes that it could never have been done without all that the parents have given to him.

That I understand. I guess it's just a total depravity concept that confuses me.

 

[Poly]

I guess it's just a total depravity concept that confuses me.

That concept tends to infuriate me but I wonder if you could tell me exactly what you mean by total depravity.

 

[Caledvwlch]

That concept doesn't confuse me but rather infuriates me but I wonder if you could tell me exactly what you mean by total depravity.

Ok, I'm probably going out on a limb here, but Lighthouse was talking about claiming responsibility for his own screw-ups, shortcomings, etc. And that's cool. I was just wondering if he'd also claim responsibility for his triumphs, or would that credit have to go to God?

My sense of total depravity is that man is incapable of holiness (not sinning) apart from the grace of God. Hopefully it actually ties into what we're talking about here. I'm not sure what you guys around here think of the total depravity thing. I've been surprised before. Dispensational theonomists?!?! :shocked:

 

[allsmiles]

Cal's definition of total depravity seems pretty right on, corresponds with "all are dead in trespasses and sin", "no one may come to the father...", so on and so forth. Apart from the grace of god we're all totally depraved. I agree with Poly, pretty dreadful, yet unfortunately on the surface it appears to be completely biblical. However for every doctrine the bible supports it supports the exacty opposite, so how are we supposed to take it seriously?

 

[Poly]

Ok, I'm probably going out on a limb here, but Lighthouse was talking about claiming responsibility for his own screw-ups, shortcomings, etc. And that's cool. I was just wondering if he'd also claim responsibility for his triumphs, or would that credit have to go to God?

Well, I hate to beat an example to death but...

Again with the parents. If they are good parents and have taught their kids well, it's not a sure fire guarentee that the kid will never mess up. The kid has his own free will and if he sees something that's not good for him yet looks enticing, he might give in to it if his lust at the time is stronger than the part in him that says "don't do it" because of what his parents taught him.

My sense of total depravity is that man is incapable of holiness (not sinning) apart from the grace of God.

I agree

Hopefully it actually ties into what we're talking about here. I'm not sure what you guys around here think of the total depravity thing.

Many would say that total depravity means that man has nothing in himself outside of God "programming" it into him. He would have to have predestined that a man do good in order for him to do so. This isn't biblical. God gave man a conscience and a freewill. Because of sin entering the world, many times man will go against what the conscience tells him is good. But a person who just knows to go in a burning building to save a child did not have to have that preprogrammed into him by God.