Caledvwlch
New member
Sorry, I forgot to get back to you. In instances where "God said" we don't really have any proof that it was actually God saying whatever was being said. But this is beside the point.Lighthouse said:
God Owes Us Big Time
- Thread starter allsmiles
- Start date
Yes it is. Very much beside the point. God is presented in the Bible as having said those things. This shows that the Bible does not show God to have exhaustively predestined everything.
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Caledvwlch
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No it only shows that God relates to people in ways that they can understand. It doesn't preclude the possibility that God already knew, but was just making Abraham "hard". Just like he did with Job. Trials and suffering make stronger people, don't they. He made a legend out of Abraham, a legend big enough to become the patriarch of three gigantic religions. I think God knew what would happen. The test was for Abraham's sake only. To strengthen his faith. To forge in the fires of trial, the man he had chosen to be the father of nations.Lighthouse said:
Caledvwlch
New member
By the way, what do you mean by exhaustive predestination?
Wrong. It denies that God already knew, outright.Caledvwlch said:
And where do you get the idea that God hardened Job?
I edited my post. I meant to say, "everything."Caledvwlch said:
And that is what I mean by exhaustive predestination, that God predestined everything, from before anything was. Of course, that woul mean He predestined the predestining, and predestined that predestining, and predestined that predestining...
God did not exhaustively predestine, nor does He exhaustively know that which will come to pass.
Caledvwlch
New member
Well, you don't think he got softer after all that punishment, do you? I don't mean hardened heart or anything, just that he got tougher.Lighthouse said:
Genesis doesn't deny that God already knew. Genesis tells us that God spoke to Abraham and told him a specific thing. He told Abraham what he needed to hear. Because he had predestined how Abraham would react, so he already knew what to say.
Caledvwlch
New member
Ok, does God know any of the future?Lighthouse said:
God didn't do any of that to Job. Nor was it punishment. The whole point of the story of Job is that Job was a good man. There was no mention of punishment. Satan was trying to get Job to trip up, and reject God. And it didn't work.Caledvwlch said:
See, the problem with predestination is right there. God told Abraham what he needed to hear, even though He predestined how Abraham would react? That's so bassackwards, I can't even spell straight after having read it.
Caledvwlch
New member
Just because you can't wrap your mind around the things of God, doesn't mean no one else can. Anyway, I'll talk to you later, my friend. I have to go smoke enough crack to burn a whole through my cerebral cortex. MUAHAHAHAHA!!!Lighthouse said:
Yes. He knows His plans. He knows what he will do to bring them about. But He does not know what time I will get up, tomorrow. Nor what I will wear.Caledvwlch said:
So, when you're backed into a corner, you exit?Caledvwlch said:
reminds me of someone else::granite:
:think:
Isn't it, doc?drbrumley said:
Caledvwlch
New member
Nope. Work was over. I had to leave. You don't think I do this on my free time, do you?Lighthouse said:
:think:
Besides, I wasn't quite backed into a corner. I can do this all day long.
Caledvwlch
New member
I never said I hated God. I'm an atheist, not a pagan. I don't hate God, in fact I admire the concept of an all-powerful supreme being, and I spent years and years studying the scripture. For the purposes of this thread, you could say I'm arguing predestination. Only because that's what I was taught, even though I no longer believe it. An exercise in rhetoric. So, let's get back to it.drbrumley said:
Caledvwlch
New member
So how can God be confident enough to make a promise, if he doesn't know what people are going to do?Lighthouse said:
So God doesn't know the future then. He's got an itinerary, but it depends on what we do? Come on, this is God we're talking about. That's silly.
Yes, much of it depends on what we do. Why do you think He called Paul int ministry, and sent Him to the Gentiles? Because the Jews rejected Christ. God's plan was to bring salvation to the world, through the Jews, and have them go into all the world and preach the gospel. But it didn't happen. So He went in another direction.Caledvwlch said:
But many of His promises aren't contingent upon our responses. His promise of never flooding the earth again is one that does not depend on anythign, other than His word.
monochrome
New member
Isn't it safe to assume that if the christian god created all things, including the human comprehension of the idea of time, that simply being outside of time he already knows the outcome? If this were true than the damned be damned for the actions he has not yet seen from our perspective, but has seen from his.
Think of it like this. A playwrite writes his masterpiece. It's shakespearian with plot twists and pointless death scenes. He writes up characters, plot, and and end. He's seen it all already, even though it hasn't been acted yet, and he knows the bad guy was bad because, well, he killed that other guy. Then he condems them all to hell, anyway. This is christian predestination.
The best way to think about predestination, for me anyway, would be to see it as God sitting outside of time. He did not write the actions, but he did see them before they happened. The script wrote itself and he got to read it before we acted it out. It's an issue of perspective: time, and our inability to think outside it.
If you find this post to be meaningless, it's beacuase of the customers interrupting my train of thought, and I'm sorry.
- m -
Think of it like this. A playwrite writes his masterpiece. It's shakespearian with plot twists and pointless death scenes. He writes up characters, plot, and and end. He's seen it all already, even though it hasn't been acted yet, and he knows the bad guy was bad because, well, he killed that other guy. Then he condems them all to hell, anyway. This is christian predestination.
The best way to think about predestination, for me anyway, would be to see it as God sitting outside of time. He did not write the actions, but he did see them before they happened. The script wrote itself and he got to read it before we acted it out. It's an issue of perspective: time, and our inability to think outside it.
If you find this post to be meaningless, it's beacuase of the customers interrupting my train of thought, and I'm sorry.
- m -