Perhaps in the sense of the ice cream/ brussel sprouts analogy. But God is not limited to time because we are. Like I said, in God's knowledge, as it pertains to our free will choice, it is neither causative or preventive. In the event I make a bad choice ( and I have), God did not cause that choice nor prevent it, but before I was born put in place His sovereign grace that I could choose to repent and be forgiven.deardelmar said:
Agape4Robin said:
I don't think so.....what is it?God_Is_Truth said:
Agape4Robin said:
I wish I could say that I subscribe to one affiliation or another, but the truth is, I am simply a christian who is searching for the truth. My foundation is the bible and Christ. I go to a Baptist church because I like the people there and the pastor is good. I listen to christian talk radio most of the time and I like Pastors such as Greg Laurie, John MacArthur, Adrian Rogers, Kay Arthur, A.W.Tozer, Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley and Focus on the Family by Dr. James Dobson. I also like The Way of The Master show with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron.God_Is_Truth said:it is a combination of the contingency argument and the incompatability argument. for a thorough explanation of it as well as a strong case for the OV, i suggest reading the following paper written by Greg Boyd and two others.
http://www.alanrhoda.net/papers/opentheism.pdf
a quick explanation of the contingency incomptability thesis would be thus:
since we have libertarian free will, each possible choice is a contingency until we make a decision. that is, every thing we could possibly do has a real possibility of being chosen. thus, all choices are contingent. the incomptability part states that real contingency is incomtabile with a closed/settled future (one that God foreknows exhaustively, ie. perfectly and completely, nothing is open) because of a logical contradiction. it states that if all choices are contingent, then each has a % chance of being chosen. however, if God knows what choice will be chosen ahead of time, then the only choice which can be picked is that one, giving it a 100% chance of being picked and giving every other choice a 0% chance. the contradiction would therefore be that the choices have both some % and 0% at the same time. thus, contingency is incompatible with a settled future because it leads to a contradiction.
it's explained more easily in the article in case that doesn't make sense
Knowable for GOD!Lighthouse said:
That's not what you said. :nono: You said, "Do you think I'm the only one who believes this?" As if majority opinion counts....
Oh, so then, you rely on what other people think? What about what God thinks? :think:
You said, "....God knew that Satan was an idiot and would get his nose rubbed in it again.
That, "God probably enjoyed Satan making a fool of himself."
The lesson was not about Satan being an idiot or God delighting in his foolishness, but that's what you made it out to be.
:shocked: :noway:
Didn't happen though, did it? :nono:
What are you trying to prove with this quote? "nor did it come into My mind." This was God emphasizing that He did not command the the people to burn their sons, like a burnt offering to Baal.
Context, Brandon......
Like you did using that last quote...trying to make God's word fit into your preconcieved idea of who God is and what He is capable of....or not......so that you can be right.
Shame on you! :nono:
So, then God is not omniscient? If He knows all present things, didn't he already know that Abraham feared Him?
Obviously this is a test of Abraham. Tests are not for God's benefit, but for our benefit. When God speaks, He often uses phrases in the form of a question to reveal to us, spiritual truths. This is not uncommon in scripture, as in Genesis 3:9. Do you really think God didn't know where Adam was?
Think, Brandon.....
Can you serve a God with limited knowledge and still have complete faith that He does not make mistakes?
Pagan? :think: Perhaps not, but.....a leading proponent of this "open thiesm" theology is a Professor Clark Pinnock who teaches theology at McMaster Divinity College in Canada. And a book called "The Openess of God." Published by IVP 1994.
Animals were not created in the image of God. Instinct? Perhaps, but free will? :think:
:duh:Really?
What does that verse prove? Only that God determines things.
You should study more.......
Ok, then, let's approach this from another angle. In Jeramiah 18:8-9 we see that God will not bring about destruction on a nation if its people repent....turn from its sin, which is what happened after Jonah preached.
God simply ordained the means of that repentance by threatening Nineveh through the prophet Jonah. They repented and God relented.
When did God change His mind about creating the earth before He created it? As you stated....
:kiss: and I love you too!
Did God change His mind?
Nope.... :nono:
2Samuel 5:12 the promise God gave to David, was given by God even though God knew what was in David's heart.
According to Vine's Expository Dictionary; everlasting means:eternal. Look 'em both up.
And round and round we go........... :juggle: :dizzy:
Our measurement of time. Ok...but doesn't the bible say that He created all things?
You say that God changes His mind. If He can change His mind and be arbitrary, then why not change what He wishes?
Says you.....
Timelessness is not illogical. Uncomprehendable to our finite mind, perhaps, but not improbable.
:beanboy: Just baiting your circular reasoning.....I never seem to have a problem eating what I want when I want, so no imposition to my free will. See the ice cream/ broccoli analogy I gave to deardelmar.
You seem to place a higher value on your precious free will over the truth about God's omniscience. :think:
Agape4Robin said:Could God know something that does not exist?
Do what? I said that because you acted like I was the only one. And then I said that the Bible teaches it, because it does.That's not what you said. :nono: You said, "Do you think I'm the only one who believes this?" As if majority opinion counts....
Are you really that daft? I was being led, by God, apart from the doctrines of men, into this arena of thinking. It simply occured to me that the God I know would work this way. Well, that He would at least choose not to know who would and who would not go to hell, especially since Christ died for all men. Then I heard someone else say somehting similar, and I was shocked. I had considered the death of Christ for all men, and Abraham sacraficing Isaac, and "The Fall," all the while wondering why God would do these things if He already knew what the outcome would be. It made more sense that He did not know. And then I was shown, Biblically, that He did not know. He was preparing me before I even realized it.
I've always thought it was funny that Satan thought he could win. He's a fool, and it's fun to laugh at him. He's already lost the war, but he keeps fighting. What a tool!
What?
No. What does that ahve to do with it? God said He would look to see... I wonder why He said that.:think:
He already said He never commanded it. The quote was that He never even thought that people ould do such a thing.
Bull:shut: God said what He said. It wasn't a figure of speech.
1] I never said God was not omniscient.
2] God knew Abraham feared Him, but He did not know how far Abraham's faith would go.
3] Tests are for a multitude of reasons.
4] What question are you talking about?
5] God very well may have chosen to not know where Adam and Eve were, for the sake of letting them reveal themselves.
6] Yes, I can. God takes risks, but does not make mistakes.
And? They are Christians. And they found the the truth of it in the Bible. Timelessness is not found in the Bible, anywhere.:nono:
Do you thik God controls the animals like puppets? They are driven by instincts, yes, but they are not controlled by an outside force.
And?
Do you have a problem with that?
Why do you think I come here? Can you show me where exhaustive foreknowledge of all future events is one of God's attributes? Where in the Bible?You should study more.......
And? The prophecy went unfulfilled, didn't it? I'm guessing you use the NKJV.
Now, did God know they would repent? If so, why not just call them to repentance? Why did He "threaten" them? Does God threaten? Or does He promise? All the story of Nineveh shows us in light of Jeremiah 18:8-9 [if you ignore everything else] is that God keeps His promises. And of course, the verses in Jer. show that He sometimes repents of a promise, under certain conditions. So He repented of one promise, and in so doing kept another.:think:
When He decided to create it. He hadn't decided to create it before that, had He? That was a change. And, once again, if you look above to the previous contention, God changed His mind in regard to Nineveh.
I'm reminded f the inscription on the paddle my dad used to have...
So? This doesn't change the fact that David, a man after God's own heart, thought He might.
What exactly was in David's heart at that time? Anything you take issue with? Anything that would make one think God would not want David to be king?
Speaking of Israel's kings and God wanting, or not wanting, them... God regretted that He had made Saul king. How could God regret if He knew what was going to happen? oR is this another figure of speech?
And speaking of God's regrets, He regretted that He had made man, which is what led to the flood.
God is everlasting, and eternal. So? How is that affected by the future not existing yet, and the past having passed into nonexistence?According to Vine's Expository Dictionary; everlasting means:eternal. Look 'em both up.
Well?
And another refusal to answer a question.
He created all created things. The Father did not create the Son, the Son is uncreated. God did not create darkness, it was already there. Same with time.
Who says He hasn't?
Anything specific you're getting at, here?
Then try to figure it out. Go ahead. It is completely logically incompatible with free will. And is impossible, unless there are endless dimensions of time so that all things can continue happening, simultaneously, for all eternity...:dizzy:
Truth about God's omniscience? The Bible is clear on the subject. And you have already admitted that it is impossible to eat anything other than what God knows you're going to eat, if He knows it, that is...:beanboy: Just baiting your circular reasoning.....I never seem to have a problem eating what I want when I want, so no imposition to my free will. See the ice cream/ broccoli analogy I gave to deardelmar.
You seem to place a higher value on your precious free will over the truth about God's omniscience. :think:
The cross didn't exist as an instrument of death in the time of Isaiah, yet he prophesied Christ's death upon it.Lighthouse said:
According to your literal eisegisis, it might.
I am not stupid, Brandon. Stop saying that or this conversation is over! :sozo2:
Good for you........... :BRAVO:
You should know your enemy.
Context......
Don't read each verse by itself......compare it with the texts prior to and following that one verse.
context, context, context..................
1. Ok........
2. :nono:
3. None of which have to do with God's enrichment.
4. :bang:
5. So, you agree that God did in fact know where they were.
6. Risks carry no consequences of failure? Is failure a mistake?
They are? Are you sure?
Then explain how the animals got to the Ark.
Oh wait, the bible does.....Genesis 6:20 " Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive."
I do, but you disregard the information I have supplied.
Nope....see Nahum and Zephaniah....we've been through this already. :doh:
You really make God out to be pretty wish washy.
And so you have exhaustive knowledge? I haven't read anywhere in the scriptures where it talks of God deciding to not create the heavens and the earth before He actually did so.
The man who murdered a man so that he could have his wife......he was after more than God's own heart.
Only that God knew of this future event...before it happened.
Apparently you don't have kids......you wouldn't understand the analogy about being disappointed in them....talk to me when you do.
:doh: You just don't get it......
I have answered it....
He used the elements of dark and light to create a point to which time can be measured.
I said Incomprehensable but not improbable.
Ok then, I change my mind.....I can eat anything I want, filet mignon or not!
Prove it. No cross was ever mentioned.Agape4Robin said:
What's wrong with taking it literally?
Then quit obfuscating that black and white of Scripture.
Does that not seem interesting to you?
What's that supposed to mean?
I do read in context.
Can you prove it's contextually wrong?
Definitely wrong on point 2, and the answer is no on point 5. If He didn't want to know, then He did not know. And as for point six, Is God going to bring all people into heaven? Is that a failure? Is it a mistake?
Yes. The guy who wrote, The Openness of God also published a book entitled, Letters from a Skeptic, which is a collection of letters sent back and forth between him and his dad. His dad was an atheist, and his son was trying to find a way to reach his dad, so he offered to answer all of his questions. His dad became a Christian, during this discourse, and that is what caused Greg to publish the letters. Bob Enyart is also a proponent of Open Theism, and he is a Christian. He's the pastor of Denver Bible Church. Knight, the owner of this site, goes to that church. Knight is an open theist. He is also a Christian. The same goes for all of the administrators, and the moderators.
God intervened. But He isn't constantly controlling every movement of every animal, currently.:nono:
See.
You're not making a very good argument if I can refute it so easily.
Don't be obtuse. The bottom line is that it was prophecied they would be destroyed in forty days, and they weren't. Get over it.
Wait, you think God decided to create the heavens and the earth before He decided to create the heavens and the earth? Because, that's what I was talking about.
Don't worry about it.
Wrong. He murdered him so that no one would know they committed adultery, because she was pregnant, and Uriah wouldn't come home to sleep with his wife.
Have you proven that? Was it in David's heart, at the time?
I know exactly what God means. He was dissapointed. It isn't an analogy, or a metaphor. It's literal truth.
No, you don't get it.
No you didn't. This isn't the same question that toook you five times to answer. It's another one. And now, this is your third chance to answer it.
And?
It's completely improbable. It makes no sense.
Bull. You're a horrible liar, Robin.
I was thinking of Deuteronomy 21:23, that proves or is contrasted by Galatians 3:13. And of course you know of the prophecies concerning Christ, written in the Psalms and Isaiah. However, the whole of the OT shows the foreshadowing of Christ.Lighthouse said:
I can agree that there are places in scripture that can be taken in its literal sense. But don't you know that the bible has hidden treasure? Golden nuggets, pearls of wisdom? Our english translated bible is only a translation, it is only parts of stories....pieces of the whole picture that only God holds, but in His grace and wisdom, has revealed great truths of which even the simplest truths are tailored for finite minds such as ours. It's God's revelation of Himself to us. Can man ever contemplate the wholeness of God? Can we capture Him with words? Faith is believing though we cannot see. I have faith that if God designed me with free will, then He would choose not to impose on it. His desire is that I would love Him and trust Him completely....even when I don't understand. My desire is that I fulfill His will for my life, to be the woman He designed me to be.
And you literalize and oversimplify.
:nono:
Only that Satan takes you seriously. While you are laughing at him, he is plotting your downfall. While you may not lose your salvation, he can still use you to bring shame and dishonor to the name of Christ. Any good soldier knows when to take his enemy seriously. That is why scripture has supplied our battle gear. Have you ever done a study on this? It's quite fascinating.
I did..... :doh:
As for point #2, I told you already that "tests" are not for God's benefit! God has exhaustive knowledge. There is nothing more for Him to learn! Point #5, in order for God to choose not to know, on what would He base the decision to choose?
On point #6 you said God takes risks......what risk is without the possibility of mistakes?
God a failure? Makes mistakes? :nono:
God is no "risk-taker"......He is certain of His plans.
And not every christian is right about all matters concerning God. Me included.
Like I said, instinct.....yes, as God designed them. Free will? I don't think so. On this point I do not know for sure, but I don't think animals have a soul.
You are being stubborn. Your refutations are based on your eisegesis.
Did you read them or not?
What?! :dizzy:
Wrong. Uriah did come home. He wouldn't sleep with Bathsheba. His conscience could not allow him to enjoy such pleasure while his men were dying on the battlefield.
As for God's regret about Saul...this is an example of anthropomorphic expression. God is working relative to us; that is, He is working in our time frame and expresses "human-like" emotions after seeing what people have done in their sinfulness. This is natural and is to be expected if we assume that God works with us and through us as we go about our daily life. ( paraphrased from CARM)
How does the past pass into "non-existance"? It doesn't. What does it mean when God "remembers our sin no more..." it simply means that He no longer holds them against us, if we are repentant.
:chuckle: What was the question?
Yeah, ok......whatever!
You don't like my first answer, so......
Remember? The one I gave you when we started this dialogue.
So? I have no reason to believe that God did not work out the details of His plan. He thought it out, and gave information to His prophets so they could prophecy. Then, when it came time He did exactly what He said would be done. This does not contradict the open view.Agape4Robin said:
I agree with that. And the open view openly states that God does not impose on our free will.
How so? Metaphor and simile exist in the Bible. So does allegory and parable. But there is no reason to think that God did not mean what He said, when He said, [Jesus]"Now I know..."[/Jesus]
You don't find it interesting that in prayer I came to the conclusion that God does not know who will and who will not go to hell, and then at a much later date [years later] found that others believe this as well? And that they showed me why, with the Bible?
I do not fear Satan. And fear is the only power he could ever have over a child of God. He has no power over me, and I have no reason to fear that he could bring me down.:nono:
No, you didn't.
Is it a mistake that not everybody goes to heaven? Of course not! But it is a risk. And one that God was willing to take, in order to save whoever would come to Him.
Of course He's certain of His plans. But He is not willing that any should perish, but they do! God did not fail, or make a mistake. Thos who reject Him are the ones who fail, and have made a grave mistake.
Animals don't have souls. And they are not capable of understandfing human concepts, but they are not puppets. They are not controlled by an outside force. They go where they want. They eat what they want. They make choices.
I know Nineveh was later destroyed. But that has nothing to do with the point. The point is that God did not destroy them at the time He said He would when He sent Jonah. He changed His mind.
Exactly. When God decided to create it was a change. He had not decided to create before then.
I know he came home. That's why I use the word "to." He didn't come home to sleep with his wife. I never said he didn't come home. And it was because he didn't sleep wiht her that David had him killed. If Uriah had slept with Bathsheba then it would have been thought to be his child. But God, knowing it wasn't, worked on Uriah's conscience so he wouldn't. And then David had him killed, and took Bathsheba in and married here, so no one would know they had had an affair. He believed everyone would think they conceived the child on their wedding night. But God had other plans. However, this has nothing to do with the issue.
See, there you go. Denying that it's literal. I believe that references to God's heart, and God's arm are anthropomorphisms. But God made us in His image, mentally and emotionally. We may not possess the knowledge He does, but we get angry, and disappointed, just like He does. Do you think God didn't mean it when He said he regretted something? Or when He said He was angry?
It passes into non-existence, in that it is no longer there. It is over, and gone. It no longer exists. Do you think God can reach into the past, and change things?
Where is it documented that God knew the specifics of what Pharoah would say, or how long it would take to before Pharoah told Moses to take the Israelites out of Egypt?
DO you think it makes any sense?
You cannot do anything other than what God knows you will do. That is, if He knows. If He does not, then you have a real choice. In order for you to have a choice, even if God could know the future exhaustively, He would have to choose not to know your choice, until you made it.You don't like my first answer, so......
Remember? The one I gave you when we started this dialogue.
Yes, because I believe infinte knowledge does not include knowlege of all things not yet determined or not yet in existence.Agape4Robin said:
puting the phrases that back up your beliefs does not make your opinion more relivent.
I agree that the moment somthing enters your mind God knows it!
from the begining of time , yes.
Again I agree with your words, but since the future does not exist, it and much of it hasn't even been caused yet it can not logicly be included in the scope of all that there is to know.
There are many examples in the Bible that don't seem to agree with you, but rather suggest that God changes his reaction to people because of the actions of people.
I am well aware that you understand it that way, it simply does not make sense to me that God could know all future events with out causing all future events nor is it logical to believe that God is unable to react to events
Who are you kidding you forced him to choose the ice cream by making brussel sprouts the other choice.
Agape4Robin said:We are all aware by now that you think the open veiw is herasy.You are doing the exact same thing with your preconcieved idea that God is outside of timeThat's not what you said. :nono: You said, "Do you think I'm the only one who believes this?" As if majority opinion counts....
Oh, so then, you rely on what other people think? What about what God thinks? :think:
You said, "....God knew that Satan was an idiot and would get his nose rubbed in it again.
That, "God probably enjoyed Satan making a fool of himself."
The lesson was not about Satan being an idiot or God delighting in his foolishness, but that's what you made it out to be.
:shocked: :noway:
Didn't happen though, did it? :nono:
What are you trying to prove with this quote? "nor did it come into My mind." This was God emphasizing that He did not command the the people to burn their sons, like a burnt offering to Baal.
Context, Brandon......
Like you did using that last quote...trying to make God's word fit into your preconcieved idea of who God is and what He is capable of....or not......so that you can be right.
Shame on you! :nono:and if they would not have repented God would not have relented.So, then God is not omniscient? If He knows all present things, didn't he already know that Abraham feared Him?
Obviously this is a test of Abraham. Tests are not for God's benefit, but for our benefit. When God speaks, He often uses phrases in the form of a question to reveal to us, spiritual truths. This is not uncommon in scripture, as in Genesis 3:9. Do you really think God didn't know where Adam was?
Think, Brandon.....
Can you serve a God with limited knowledge and still have complete faith that He does not make mistakes?
Pagan? :think: Perhaps not, but.....a leading proponent of this "open thiesm" theology is a Professor Clark Pinnock who teaches theology at McMaster Divinity College in Canada. And a book called "The Openess of God." Published by IVP 1994.
Animals were not created in the image of God. Instinct? Perhaps, but free will? :think:
:duh:
You should study more.......
Ok, then, let's approach this from another angle. In Jeramiah 18:8-9 we see that God will not bring about destruction on a nation if its people repent....turn from its sin, which is what happened after Jonah preached.
God simply ordained the means of that repentance by threatening Nineveh through the prophet Jonah. They repented and God relented.He changed his mind when he decided to flood the whole earth and start things overNo, God places a higher value on free will than your pagan influenced idea of omniscience:kiss: and I love you too!
Did God change His mind?
Nope.... :nono:
2Samuel 5:12 the promise God gave to David, was given by God even though God knew what was in David's heart.
According to Vine's Expository Dictionary; everlasting means:eternal. Look 'em both up.
And round and round we go........... :juggle: :dizzy:
Our measurement of time. Ok...but doesn't the bible say that He created all things?
You say that God changes His mind. If He can change His mind and be arbitrary, then why not change what He wishes?
Says you.....
Timelessness is not illogical. Uncomprehendable to our finite mind, perhaps, but not improbable.
:beanboy: Just baiting your circular reasoning.....I never seem to have a problem eating what I want when I want, so no imposition to my free will. See the ice cream/ broccoli analogy I gave to deardelmar.
You seem to place a higher value on your precious free will over the truth about God's omniscience. :think:
Lighthouse said:Is this better?
So you assume that the Open Theist view is the only correct one. I tire of this circular arguement. It proves nothing, and you are just as set in your beliefs as I am.
And my Orthodox view of christianity as God being all knowing....past, present and future does not impose on my free will either.
:doh:
Funny that you would say that. Beanieboy said the same thing about God leading him to buddhism.
Perhaps you two are talking to the same god. :think:
I didn't say fear. I said "know your enemy".
But hey, it's your choice.
So, you don't sin?
Yes I did.
Hhhmmmmm.......God the cosmic gambler....... :think:
Maybe Heaven will have a place like Las Vegas, only with out the prostitution and mafia! :darwinsm:
:duh:
:cow: :Shaggy: :aimiel: :troy: :crow2: :chicken: :dog:
It has everything to do with it. Even if it was postponed, it still happened. :grave:
A change from what?
OY! :doh:
I know enough about hermaneutics to know when to be literal or otherwise.
Same for you.........
I never said or implied that God reaches in to the past and changes anything. The past does exist in the past. They call it history......
Does it have to be documented? :readthis:
I don't think you make sense. :nono:
If anything God (in His wisdom) chooses not to impose His knowledge (of future events) in attempt to force us to abandon our free will. That is a truly loving and omniscient God.
deardelmar said:
