ECT God does NOT grant eternal life

[Cross Reference]

It isn't my job to read your mind. If you can't articulate whatever convoluted point you're trying to make then how is that my problem.

What part you call convoluted, do you need help with?

Just the statement that God does not grant eternal life is patently stupid on the face of it! I can't imagine what processed me to think you'd be able to have an intelligent - two-way conversation.

Is it? Where else can a Christian go when he dies? Death cannot hold the Christian.. Given what God demands, do you believe He COULD refuse a Christian. Where is the granting but rather the reward?? God does indeed great eternal life to those who love Him. Do you love Him?

I've attempted to get you to make sense and would still like for you to do so but I'm not going to hold your hand. I made a fully substantive response to your opening post and you responded with a parade of single sentences that I then said twice made no sense and asked you specifically what you meant and you ignored the question and chose instead to ramble on about what I can ly surmise is your attempt to repeat your point instead of addressing my objections or answering my questions.

When???? Not is my lifetime have you.

 

[Clete]

What part you call convoluted, do you need help with?

If you'd stop putting an extra [ quote] tag at the beginning of your posts, they'd look they're supposed too.

Just sayin'

Is it? Where else can a Christian go when he dies? Death cannot hold the Christian.. Given what God demands, do you believe He COULD refuse a Christian. Where is the granting but rather the reward?? God does indeed great eternal life to those who love Him. Do you love Him?

Now you're contradicting yourself or at the very least proving that I was right when I said that your whole point is purely semantic in nature (which does not mean that it's necessarily unimportant, by the way).

You say here that God grants eternal life. The title of the thread and the opening post say the opposite.

So, which is it, does God grant eternal life or not?

When???? Not is my lifetime have you.

If you aren't reading my posts, how can I help that? What fix is there that I can perform that will overcome you not reading my posts?

In response to me saying this...

Granting that, then a man who is dead in sin (i.e. separated from God) is brought to new life in Christ upon believing the gospel and placing his faith in the finished work of Christ on his behalf. How is that not "granting eternal life"?​

You said this...

Conditionally, yes.​

You then said, in response to a quote of John 17:3...

That certainly is a condition, isn't it? However, it is spoken by Jesus to imply intimacy with God and Himself.​

I then, in post 71 asked the following....

What does that mean, "conditionally"?

I cannot figure out what in the world you could mean. Jesus is praying to the Father and talking about His (Jesus') authority to give eternal life "to all flesh" and then states what eternal life is. What do you mean by "condition"?​

You completely ignored all of that and responded with a post that was basically just a rambling, even less clearly written repeat of your opening post.

I don't understand why, when asked a question, some people want to reset the whole conversation rather than just answering the question.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Cross Reference]

If anyone has a problem with anything I have posited below please give me the opportunity to clear it up especially if rewording it will make the difference. I don't want anyone going away confused because I didn't word something correctly. Thank you.

A man's soul and body are held together by the "Breath of Life" that is of God which we commonly call the "spirit of man” or our “human spirit", our human spirit being loan from God for as long as his body remains alive, intact with his “mind, will and emotions”, his soul, that which makes man, eternal:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

Man's being consists of body and soul and spirit. Separate them and he stops living on this earth.

For the new born from above, it is the same Spirit and for which Paul has these words: "Have this mind in yourselves, which is yours by Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped", Philippians 2:5-6 (CRV). This is also why Jesus could say this about Himself because His human spirit was in complete union with the Spirit of God: "The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that their [souls] may be one even as we are one [soul]", John 17:22 (ESV). No death in that even when the body decays because the soul departs unto God having been reconciled to Him and his human spirit is already of the "source of life" making the two, one, to await the resurrection of the body.. It cannot be otherwise.

To sum up we can use the words of Jesus to do so:

". . . . I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were [physically] dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. .. . . " John 11:25-26 (KJV) His soul, [mind, will and emotions] and spirit are in His keeping: And . . "if the Spirit of him [God’s, "breath of life"] that raised up Jesus from the grave dwells in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwells in you." Romans 8:11 (KJV)

Hence, the soul, that which a person is, cannot return to God without being reconciled to Him; without the peace made in man’s behalf by Jesus Christ is “fully” received to his soul.. . . with the stamp of God on it.

[emphasis mine]

 

[Rosenritter]

My point is he was left ALL ALONE. I gave you proof that HE was.




Then why the test?



For the same reason Abraham was tested. The same reason Adam was tested. The same reason Moses was tested. Read for understanding why? God isn't going to just hand over His kingdom to untried and tested souls to see them fail along with His plans. Only "the violent IN Him will take it by force". Even the children of Israel had to be proven before God would allow them entry into the promise land that He would defend for them IF they obeyed Him.



Care to explain how Jesus can be tempted and God cannot be?

Sophistry. You are playing word games.

 

[Rosenritter]

If anyone has a problem with anything I have posited below please give me the opportunity to clear it up especially if rewording it will make the difference. I don't want anyone going away confused because I didn't word something correctly. Thank you.

A man's soul and body are held together by the "Breath of Life" that is of God which we commonly call the "spirit of man” or our “human spirit", our human spirit being loan from God for as long as his body remains alive, intact with his “mind, will and emotions”, his soul, that which makes man, eternal:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

Man's being consists of body and soul and spirit. Separate them and he stops living on this earth.

For the new born from above, it is the same Spirit and for which Paul has these words: "Have this mind in yourselves, which is yours by Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped", Philippians 2:5-6 (CRV). This is also why Jesus could say this about Himself because His human spirit was in complete union with the Spirit of God: "The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that their [souls] may be one even as we are one [soul]", John 17:22 (ESV). No death in that even when the body decays because the soul departs unto God having been reconciled to Him and his human spirit is already of the "source of life" making the two, one, to await the resurrection of the body.. It cannot be otherwise.

To sum up we can use the words of Jesus to do so:

". . . . I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were [physically] dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. .. . . " John 11:25-26 (KJV) His soul, [mind, will and emotions] and spirit are in His keeping: And . . "if the Spirit of him [God’s, "breath of life"] that raised up Jesus from the grave dwells in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwells in you." Romans 8:11 (KJV)

Hence, the soul, that which a person is, cannot return to God without being reconciled to Him; without the peace made in man’s behalf by Jesus Christ is “fully” received to his soul.. . . with the stamp of God on it.

[emphasis mine]

Its all wrong. The scripture is right but all your conclusions are mistaken.

 

[Cross Reference]

If you'd stop putting an extra [ quote] tag at the beginning of your posts, they'd look they're supposed too.

Just sayin'


Now you're contradicting yourself or at the very least proving that I was right when I said that your whole point is purely semantic in nature (which does not mean that it's necessarily unimportant, by the way).

You say here that God grants eternal life. The title of the thread and the opening post say the opposite.

So, which is it, does God grant eternal life or not?

If the mere righteous are scarcely saved, I would say it has to be granted of God simply because He alone is witness to their spiritual condition. (cf 1 Pet.4:18) But, I was referring to the born again Christian, one who is pursuing God to know Him.

Carry that thinking over into Rev 2 and 3.

 

[Cross Reference]

I cannot figure out what in the world you could mean. Jesus is praying to the Father and talking about His (Jesus') authority to give eternal life "to all flesh" and then states what eternal life is. What do you mean by "condition"?[/INDENT]

You completely ignored all of that and responded with a post that was basically just a rambling, even less clearly written repeat of your opening post.

I don't believe I did. However, my writing isn't the best which often causes me to rewrite after 24 hrs and after a review for my own benefit because often I like to keep what I write because I know I will never be able to write it again the same way. Lots-o-times I don't understand because of grammatical errors, loss of train of thought, redundancy, etc. I think you know what I mean? What I don't look for is..riddicule, from anyone who lives in a glass house.

So that said, and after my immediate last post, Do you still have a question? Lets go back over it if you want.

 

[Clete]

If the mere righteous are scarcely saved, I would say it has to be granted of God simply because He alone is witness to their spiritual condition. (cf 1 Pet.4:18) But, I was referring to the born again Christian, one who is pursuing God to know Him.

Carry that thinking over into Rev 2 and 3.

Does this response make any sense to anyone else?

What does the "merely righteous" mean?

"Scarcely saved" ???

And what does any of this have to do with Revelation 2 and 3, which is where we find the letters Jesus wrote to various congregations of believing Jews (i.e. Kingdom Gospel believers).

Is that what this thread is about; trying to figure out how Christians can lose their salvation if they don't follow the rules? Has this whole thread been some convoluted way of secretly arguing that believers aren't granted eternal life when they believe but are made to wait until they stand before God before eternal life is granted?

Is that what he meant by "conditional"? I'm asking everyone else because he seems unwilling or unable to answer the question?

I'm through asking at this point. Either I get clear answers or I blow this whole discussion off as a waste of my time and move on to something more interesting and productive.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I don't believe I did. However, my writing isn't the best which often causes me to rewrite after 24 hrs and after a review for my own benefit. Lots-o-times I don't understand because of grammatical errors, train of thought, redundancy, etc. I think you know what I mean? What I don't look for is..riddicule, from anyone who lives in a glass house.

So that said, and after my immediate last post, Do you still have a question? Lets go back over it if you want.

Your last post did not even address the question, CR!

Look, I'm not trying to ridicule you! I'm telling you straight that your posts make no sense! They are unresponsive, lateral jumps in thought that have no direct bearing on what I've asked you repeatedly to clarify.

Just answer the question straight! Stop trying to dump everything in your brain into the post and just directly answer the question as simply as possible. I can then respond to that answer and perhaps ask more questions and the conversation can proceed in a rational and productive direction that isn't a waste of time for anyone involved.


And seriously! Stop adding the extra [ quote] tag to your posts! Do you see how this post looks? The quote is YOUR quote, not mine and yet is looks like I quoted myself because you keep adding a [ quote] tag that is not necessary and then everyone you talk with has to go in and edit your extra tag out to make their post come out right.

 

[Cross Reference]

Does this response make any sense to anyone else?

What does the "merely righteous" mean?

"Scarcely saved" ???

If you read the verse, you should have no need to ask me. Peter wrote for the benefit of all. Surely you know that as well.

Here's one more:

"and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold;
but he who did endure to the end, he shall be saved;" Matthew 24:12-13 (YLT)

What does that mean?

 

[Clete]

If you read the verse, you should have no need to ask me. Peter wrote for the benefit of all. Surely you know that as well.

Here's one more:

"and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold;
but he who did endure to the end, he shall be saved;" Matthew 24:12-13 (YLT)

What does that mean?

It means that if you were saved while under the law, you remained under the law and could thus lose your salvation.

Peter, ministered to the Circumcision believers, CR (see Romans 11:29 and Galatians 2:9).

So, finally, we expose the true point of all this confusing, convoluted mess of a thread.

Why are you scared of stating plainly what your own doctrine is to the point you have to bend so far over backward to disguise your point that no one can understand what in the world you're even talking about?

Notice one thing, CR. Every text that you think teaches that a Christian can lose their salvation will be written by someone other than Paul, the Apostle of the Dispensation of Grace (Eph. 3:1-2) and all the texts that you consider problem texts for that doctrine will have been written by Paul. You'll take everything witten by Paul to mean something other than what is seems to say (as you've done in this very thread - which was my only clue that you were dicussing this topic by the way) and passages written by Jesus, Peter, James and John you'll take to mean what they plainly state.

I, on the other hand, understand that all the biblical authors were very able to articulate themselves quite well and they meant precisely what they said. I just pay attention to who the letters were written too and understand that not all of them were written to or about the group to which I belong, namely the Body of Christ.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Rosenritter]

If the mere righteous are scarcely saved, I would say it has to be granted of God simply because He alone is witness to their spiritual condition. (cf 1 Pet.4:18) But, I was referring to the born again Christian, one who is pursuing God to know Him.

Carry that thinking over into Rev 2 and 3.

I think you just contradicted your own thread premise. Or have been persuaded somewhat. Hopefully the latter.

 

[Cross Reference]

It means that if you were saved while under the law, you remained under the law and could thus lose your salvation.

Peter, ministered to the Circumcision believers, CR (see Romans 11:29 and Galatians 2:9).

So, finally, we expose the true point of all this confusing, convoluted mess of a thread.

Why are you scared of stating plainly what your own doctrine is to the point you have to bend so far over backward to disguise your point that no one can understand what in the world you're even talking about?

Notice one thing, CR. Every text that you think teaches that a Christian can lose their salvation will be written by someone other than Paul, the Apostle of the Dispensation of Grace (Eph. 3:1-2) and all the texts that you consider problem texts for that doctrine will have been written by Paul. You'll take everything witten by Paul to mean something other than what is seems to say (as you've done in this very thread - which was my only clue that you were dicussing this topic by the way) and passages written by Jesus, Peter, James and John you'll take to mean what they plainly state.

I, on the other hand, understand that all the biblical authors were very able to articulate themselves quite well and they meant precisely what they said. I just pay attention to who the letters were written too and understand that not all of them were written to or about the group to which I belong, namely the Body of Christ.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Do you feel the same about the issues when explaining this to yourself:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)

Obviously, you see yourself as a man of God, right . . or am I mistaken about that as well?

 

[Rosenritter]

It means that if you were saved while under the law, you remained under the law and could thus lose your salvation.

Peter, ministered to the Circumcision believers, CR (see Romans 11:29 and Galatians 2:9).

So, finally, we expose the true point of all this confusing, convoluted mess of a thread.

Why are you scared of stating plainly what your own doctrine is to the point you have to bend so far over backward to disguise your point that no one can understand what in the world you're even talking about?

Notice one thing, CR. Every text that you think teaches that a Christian can lose their salvation will be written by someone other than Paul, the Apostle of the Dispensation of Grace (Eph. 3:1-2) and all the texts that you consider problem texts for that doctrine will have been written by Paul. You'll take everything witten by Paul to mean something other than what is seems to say (as you've done in this very thread - which was my only clue that you were dicussing this topic by the way) and passages written by Jesus, Peter, James and John you'll take to mean what they plainly state.

I, on the other hand, understand that all the biblical authors were very able to articulate themselves quite well and they meant precisely what they said. I just pay attention to who the letters were written too and understand that not all of them were written to or about the group to which I belong, namely the Body of Christ.

Resting in Him,
Clete

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 KJV
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. [25] And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. [26] I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: [27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

What you said doesn't seem to match the above, even if accepting your dispensationalist premise. Paul could become a castaway, he said.

 

[Cross Reference]

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Revelation 3:14-16 (KJV)

Hey Clete!! Was Laodicea a jewish community?

 

[TweetyBird]

My point is he was left ALL ALONE. I gave you proof that HE was.

I never said He wasn't left alone. Why are you bringing this up?

Then why the test?

It was about satan testing Jesus. satan was as much in the dark about who Jesus was as the religious leaders.

1 Cor 2
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

For the same reason Abraham was tested. The same reason Adam was tested. The same reason Moses was tested. Read for understanding why? God isn't going to just hand over His kingdom to untried and tested souls to see them fail along with His plans. Only "the violent IN Him will take it by force". Even the children of Israel had to be proven before God would allow them entry into the promise land that He would defend for them IF they obeyed Him.

Jesus was tested. How many times would you like me to post it?

Care to explain how Jesus can be tempted and God cannot be?

God is not tempted but He tried by mankind. Jesus was tried by satan. God/Jesus cannot be tempted to sin. Bowing before satan would be a sin, just like it would be a sin for us. Jesus was not tempted to bow down to satan - for what reason? He is King over all the earth. Are you tempted to bow down to satan?

 

[TweetyBird]

Guess you are just stubborn. The text says tempted. End of story.

Not tempted to sin, however like referred to in James 1. Do you see the difference? Or do you really think Jesus was tempted to sin and bow down to satan?

 

[TweetyBird]

Sophistry. You are playing word games.

You posted as if I said all that stuff - it was not me. You quoted the wrong person. It was Cross Reference.

 

[Cross Reference]

I never said He wasn't left alone. Why are you bringing this up?

Because you did.

It was about satan testing Jesus. satan was as much in the dark about who Jesus was as the religious leaders.

No he wasn't. Who told you that? This was about God testing Jesus and using Satan to do it by tempting Him. Why would God want Jesus tested? Why did He needed to have Adam tested or Abraham or Moses and David and anyone else He desired for leading His people??

Jesus was tested. How many times would you like me to post it?

Until you are clear on the matter.

God is not tempted but He tried by mankind.

Huh?? Who tried?

Jesus was tried by satan.

Jesus ws tempted by Satan not to try Him but out and out get Jesus to fail!

God/Jesus cannot be tempted to sin.

Jesus was. I thought we cleared that up.

Bowing before satan would be a sin, just like it would be a sin for us. Jesus was not tempted to bow down to satan - for what reason? He is King over all the earth. Are you tempted to bow down to satan?

Have you ever been on a fast without something to eat OR drink for forty days? God didn't need food or drink but, Jesus?? What do you think?

 

[Danoh]

Those three issues Satan tempted the Lord with are Dispensational.

All three will be issues ISRAEL will be faced with, and delivered through, during THEIR YET FUTURE Tribulation.

They will be tempted to bow to the Adversary; they will have to flee into the dessert, where the Lord will not only feed them, but then deliver them "on eagles wings" as it were.

The Adversary knew who he was dealing with and had sought to tempt Him to break from Daniel's Time Line: the order of events within JACOB'S Trouble.

Devils know these timelines, and that their coming judgement has it's day within said timelines.

God's Ace in the hole?

His BRILLIANT Glory to HIS Glory...ALONE?

"The wisdom of God in a mystery..."

That's right...

While the Adversary was busy trafficking in his same old ways in light of his knowledge of that "which was prophesied since the world began" God had already known "since BEFORE the world began" how to checkmate him, shut him down, make a complete spoil of him before all creation - and by the Adversary's own hand...

Via "the wisdom of God in a mystery..."

Point set, game over, chekcmate, how you like me now - just where is the so called, self-styled, vain in his own conceits...disputer of this world?

Mid Acts Facts!