Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, but that does not mean that the epistle was addressed to both believers and unbelievers.
ECT glorydaz says that Romans is Written to Unbelievers
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Yes, but that does not mean that the epistle was addressed to both believers and unbelievers.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If it is addressed to unbelievers then why did Paul not mention them when he said exactly who he was addressing?:
"to all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and [our] Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is proclaimed in the whole world" (Ro.1:7-8).
We can know that the word "all" in verse seven is referring to the "all" in verse eight, and that means only those with faith are being addressed:
"I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is proclaimed in the whole world."
e·quiv·o·ca·tion
iˌkwivəˈkāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: equivocation; plural noun: equivocations
Here is a picture of one on this thread who does this ALL the time.
- the use of ambiguous language to conceal the truth or to avoid committing oneself; prevarication.
You talk big but you have never been able to prove that your accusation is true. Just because you say it means nothing.
Glorydaz, its obvious Jerry will go on forever about a thing and is always right in his mind.
All one can do is call him out; not attempt to actually reason with him.
That is how the bully; essentially a hypocritical, condescending, lying, baiting individual, is dealt with - call him out; don't attempt to reason with him.
As tempted as I at times am to address his errors, I stop myself - way better minds than you and I both, in fact, than most on here, have tried to reason with him - all have failed.
His sham is that pathetic; that shameful.
He is a joke throughout the Grace Movement.
His only honesty; his being so obvious in his dishonesty, where others like him within the Movement are a bit more careful in allowing others to see them for what they really are.
As his Jerry-at-trick buddy, Teltelastai-in-his-eye, and others like these two fools prove; all movements have such within their ranks.
In this, talk about taking the cake.
Where Paul relates "receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear" 1 Tim. 5:19, 20, Jerry and his kind cannot but continue to prove their hypocrisy against themselves far beyond "two or three witnesses."
Call him out; don't attempt to reason with him; his is a "whited wall."
All one can do is call him out; not attempt to actually reason with him.
That is how the bully; essentially a hypocritical, condescending, lying, baiting individual, is dealt with - call him out; don't attempt to reason with him.
As tempted as I at times am to address his errors, I stop myself - way better minds than you and I both, in fact, than most on here, have tried to reason with him - all have failed.
His sham is that pathetic; that shameful.
He is a joke throughout the Grace Movement.
His only honesty; his being so obvious in his dishonesty, where others like him within the Movement are a bit more careful in allowing others to see them for what they really are.
As his Jerry-at-trick buddy, Teltelastai-in-his-eye, and others like these two fools prove; all movements have such within their ranks.
In this, talk about taking the cake.
Where Paul relates "receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear" 1 Tim. 5:19, 20, Jerry and his kind cannot but continue to prove their hypocrisy against themselves far beyond "two or three witnesses."
Call him out; don't attempt to reason with him; his is a "whited wall."
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yeah, you're right, Danoh. Which would explain why he refuses to address what he claims concerning Romans 10:9
This from post #153 on my thread about Romans chapter 10. He really doesn't want anyone to notice.... His claim the verse is referring to believers.
Jerry Shuggart said:
I'll say this for old Jer. He does a great job of muddying the waters....kinda like a big fat carp floundering around in the mud while feeding off the bottom.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look at what glorydaz said to me here:
Now you say I claimed the epistle was "addressed" to both believers and unbelievers.
Does not what glorydaz says below indicate that she believes that the epistle to the Romans was addressed to not only the saved but also to the unsaved?:
You only show your ignorance when you make the claim that everyone being addressed is a believer. "All that be in Rome". That means anyone who hears the letter being read.
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
She told me that I was wrong for saying that everyone being addressed is a believer. So she thinks that unbelievers were being addressed as well as believers.
But she said that I lied when I said that she said that the epistle was "addressed" to both believers and unbelievers.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I'm showing how you contradict yourself. That's what I'm showing.
You make a claim about me and then say exactly what I said to begin with. That's contradicting yourself and giving yourself permission to say what you accused me of saying. If you weren't so invested in trying to make me look the fool, you'd see that the only fool around here is YOU. :chuckle:
You need to stop and collect yourself. In your rush to be right, you are exposing yourself at every turn. I'm saying this for your own good. A little humility would do you a world of good.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Ah, I think I see the problem. Jerry is a legalist. He's thinking the letter is the envelope because of who the envelope is addressed to. :doh:
If I address a letter to the Shugart family, does that mean every question or statement in the letter can only be to the family group? I can't ask little Jerry how little league practice is going? I can't ask little Jerette how ballet rehearsals turned out?
When Paul says, "O man" in chapter two, is he addressing a believer? Or is that "every man" excluded because "every man" or "o man" is not written on the envelope? This is why legalists are so hard to reason with. Danoh nailed it.....nit picky.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
All you are doing is to attack me instead of taking responsibility for what YOU said here:
If I am wrong for saying that everyone being addressed is a believer then you must think that unbelievers were also being addressed.
And that is exactly what you are saying and then you call me a liar for saying that you assert that both believers and unbelievers are being addressed:
Now you are denying your own words because you will never admit that you made a mistake. And then when people point out your mistake you revert to the childish behavior of calling them liars.
Good post. He's one of those, who think highly of themselves while
others stand by and see the truth of what he is.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You do not like me because I proved that what you said here is in error:
WRONG!
The following words of the Lord Jesus were addressed to the Jews who lived under the Law:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.
In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:
"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."
Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."
So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Therefore, a believer receives eternal life before he does any works.
Here is what James says before that:
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).
You misunderstand the meaning of what is said about James 2:17 because you fail to understand that the subject being spoken of there is what a man can know about another man's faith:
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).
If a man does not see "works" from another man then that man's faith is non-existent or dead as far as he can see.
Paul made it plain that the Jews who lived under the law were saved in the exact way as the Gentiles:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
The Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith. And if it is of works then it cannot be said that their salvation is according to the principle of grace:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).
all of the above can be found on the thread titled "Mid-Acts Dispensation Salvation #1 Salvation #2", on page 3 and post #44.
You did not even attempt to answer what I said. Instead, now you try to assassinate my character because I embarrassed you and that shows you know nothing about what Paul wrote here:
"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph.4:1-3).
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glorydaz
Well-known member
What I won't do is take responsibility for what you say I said.
Both believers and unbelievers ARE BEING ADDRESSED ....depending on what verses (in the entire epistle) you're looking at, Jerry.
The verses in Romans 10:9-10 are being addressed to unbelievers.....what they must do to be saved. (Not to believers in order to receive their glorified bodies as you claimed but won't admit to saying). It's what the believers are preaching to unbelievers...that word of faith that believers preach to unbelievers. Actually very self-explanatory. Most people get it but you refuse to admit it.
Romans 2 is being addressed to "every man" as you said yourself but now try to run from. Speaking of "childish".....Man up, Jerry, and put on your big boy pants.
The title of this thread is a LIE and you wrote it. What does that make you, Jerry? A Liar who refuses to admit he lied and attempted to deceive. You should have closed this thread when you were called on to do so from the beginning. Instead you edited and now you play the big cover up hoping no one will notice what you're doing. It's a shame you just can't admit your error instead of digging a deeper hole for yourself.
The one opening it... will be Jerry... and the one forcing how it is to be received down the throats of its actually intended recipients will be... Jerry.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here you are speaking about what Paul says at the beginning of the epistle and that is where he speaks of to whom the epistle was addressed:
You said:
This is not speaking about just certain chapters of the epistle, as you assert, but instead all the epistle. You cannot even understand your own words.
glorydaz
Well-known member
"You don't like me...." That sounds like GT, doesn't it? :chuckle:
Nope, it's Jerry, after all.
Look out GM. You've caught the eye of the rabid dog. :dizzy:
That's what happened to me when I complimented Danoh on one of his posts. Look what it got me. Wonder what lie he'll accuse you of? Wonder if you'll get your very own call out thread?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Evidently GM has no answers to what I said. Why don't you help him out and answer my points for him? He never expressed anything at all against me until he was unable to answer what I said.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I do not take orders from john weenie!
glorydaz
Well-known member
Actually, that was well after you dragged me from Romans 10....but I'll bite. Paul is not just addressing believers as he leads us down the Roman Road. Any fool can tell that as they read the letter. You seem to think everyone in the assembly where that letter is being read is a believer. I'm pretty sure, after reading the entire letter, that Paul knew for a fact they aren't all believers. All that be in Rome....even all that be in that assembly....even all those Jews who Paul addressed in chapter two. Jerry, you are very naive, aren't you?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That answers nothing about my remarks about what you said here:
Here you are speaking about what Paul says at the beginning of the epistle and that is where he speaks of to whom the epistle was addressed:
You said:
This is not speaking about just certain chapters of the epistle, as you assert, but instead all the epistle. You cannot even understand your own words.