Free Will

beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
If God told Israel to choose then it follows that they had the power to choose. By definition our "will" is our ability to make choices. But I have another scripture that proves the same point. In the following scriptures I have typed the choices that God wants Israel to make in bold.

“Wash you, make you clean;
put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes;
cease to do evil;
Learn to do well;
seek judgment,
relieve the oppressed,
judge the fatherless,
plead for the widow.
(Isaiah 1:16-17)

God would not command them to do something that was impossible for them to do. In fact God is relying on the fact that they have a will.

In the rest of the passage God appeals to their reason in order to persuade them to make the right choice


Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord:
though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
(Isaiah 1:18)

This shows God's kind intention towards not just SOME but ALL of the people, anyone who would listen, at any rate. God did not want them to harden their hearts and bring them to judgment. If He had wanted to do that He need never have said anything to them.

Next God uses the conditional word IF indicating that they were able to follow or refuse his offer.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the
land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the
Lord hath spoken it” (Isa. 1:19-20)

Offering someone a motive - reward and punishment - presupposes that their decision can be influenced. The mind reasons, considering both courses of action and then the person decides if their sin is worth it. I do not see anything in here about God determining what they would think or choose.
Click to expand...
Show me a scripture that says man has a freewill!

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JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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Shasta said:
If God told Israel to choose then it follows that they had the power to choose. By definition our "will" is our ability to make choices. But I have another scripture that proves the same point. In the following scriptures I have typed the choices that God wants Israel to make in bold.

“Wash you, make you clean;
put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes;
cease to do evil;
Learn to do well;
seek judgment,
relieve the oppressed,
judge the fatherless,
plead for the widow.
(Isaiah 1:16-17)

God would not command them to do something that was impossible for them to do. In fact God is relying on the fact that they have a will.

In the rest of the passage God appeals to their reason in order to persuade them to make the right choice


Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord:
though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
(Isaiah 1:18)

This shows God's kind intention towards not just SOME but ALL of the people, anyone who would listen, at any rate. God did not want them to harden their hearts and bring them to judgment. If He had wanted to do that He need never have said anything to them.

Next God uses the conditional word IF indicating that they were able to follow or refuse his offer.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the
land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the
Lord hath spoken it” (Isa. 1:19-20)

Offering someone a motive - reward and punishment - presupposes that their decision can be influenced. The mind reasons, considering both courses of action and then the person decides if their sin is worth it. I do not see anything in here about God determining what they would think or choose.
Click to expand...
Ask B57 about why God put cherubim in front of the entrance to the Garden of Eden.

Ask why God, if He predestined man to build a tower at Babel that attempted to reach to heaven, then foiled His own plan by confusing the languages.

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Eagles Wings

Eagles Wings

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JudgeRightly said:
If man did not have free will, then why didn't God just predestine Adam to not return to the garden instead of putting cherubim in front of the entrance?

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Click to expand...
I do not think mankind has the ability to choose God of it's own free will. I think that when Adam disobeyed God's command, the effects of this grievous fall left us all depraved of heart and mind and separated from God, as evident in not being allowed back into the garden.

You probably didn't mean your question to be speculative, as it is impossible to answer a question like this when it is evident God's word says otherwise.
 
JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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Eagles Wings said:
I do not think mankind has the ability to choose God of it's own free will. I think that when Adam disobeyed God's command, the effects of this grievous fall left us all depraved of heart and mind and separated from God, as evident in not being allowed back into the garden.

You probably didn't mean your question to be speculative, as it is impossible to answer a question like this when it is evident God's word says otherwise.
Click to expand...
You misunderstand the question.

If God predestined man to sin, could he not also predestine man to leave the garden? And if so, why put angels at the entrance of the garden to prevent man from going back in if man cannot go back regardless because God predestined him to leave and never come back?

Why, if Calvinism is the correct way of interpreting the Bible, does the Bible say:

"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— *therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken." - Genesis 3:22-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis3:22-23&version=NKJV

Why does God state there is a possibility of Adam returning to eat if God predestined Him not to return at all? That contradicts predestination.

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C

clefty

New member
JudgeRightly said:
You misunderstand the question.

If God predestined man to sin, could he not also predestine man to leave the garden? And if so, why put angels at the entrance of the garden to prevent man from going back in if man cannot go back regardless because God predestined him to leave and never come back?

Why, if Calvinism is the correct way of interpreting the Bible, does the Bible say:

"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— *therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken." - Genesis 3:22-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis3:22-23&version=NKJV

Why does God state there is a possibility of Adam returning to eat if God predestined Him not to return at all? That contradicts predestination.

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Click to expand...

bravo!

Indeed...let us reason...Calvin only works when we don't...

he undermines himself with his own need and use of swords to act as a cherubim sword in hand guarding the way back to life...
 
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freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Eagles Wings said:
I do not think mankind has the ability to choose God of it's own free will. I think that when Adam disobeyed God's command, the effects of this grievous fall left us all depraved of heart and mind and separated from God, as evident in not being allowed back into the garden.

You probably didn't mean your question to be speculative, as it is impossible to answer a question like this when it is evident God's word says otherwise.
Click to expand...

You'll find the concept of 'original sin' not existing within orthodox Judaism, that is a later 'christian innovation/development', but it is understood that in man there is both a good and evil 'inclination'. Obviously before the 'fall' Adam was not tainted by so called 'original sin' so he had a much truer freedom of will so to speak, yet obviously in the narrative he had FULL FREEDOM of choice. This freedom of choice as we've been sharing is indicated ALL thru-out the scriptures, so that 'free will' however limited and constrained by certain conditioning factors, is still 'free will' nonetheless.
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Denial of God's WORD.......

Denial of God's WORD.......

JudgeRightly said:
If man did not have free will, then why didn't God just predestine Adam to not return to the garden instead of putting cherubim in front of the entrance?
Click to expand...


Because God KNEW He gave Adam free will. (drop the mic)

This famous passage in Deuteronomy 30:1–19 is the charter passage advocating free will, by God himself, and the witness of heaven and earth,...I dont see how these 3 witnesses ('God' included if his word means anything) are continually denied :idunno:

See HERE.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
Ezekiel 18:23
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."


Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
Ezekiel 18:23
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."


Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'
Click to expand...
Yes God Created some people for destruction, they are called vessels of wrath Rom 9 Also those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8!

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TulipBee

TulipBee

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freelight said:
You'll find the concept of 'original sin' not existing within orthodox Judaism, that is a later 'christian innovation/development', but it is understood that in man there is both a good and evil 'inclination'. Obviously before the 'fall' Adam was not tainted by so called 'original sin' so he had a much truer freedom of will so to speak, yet obviously in the narrative he had FULL FREEDOM of choice. This freedom of choice as we've been sharing is indicated ALL thru-out the scriptures, so that 'free will' however limited and constrained by certain conditioning factors, is still 'free will' nonetheless.
Click to expand...
Calvinism teaches limited free will, slaved will and captive wills. You believe calvinism
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

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beloved57 said:
Yes God Created some people for destruction, they are called vessels of wrath Rom 9 Also those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8!
Click to expand...

The scriptures do NOT say God created these people to sin. The vessels of wrath do NOT mean God willed them to sin, for the scriptures say PLAINLY that God wants all to repent. The scripture you referenced is about people who only live for their flesh cannot please God---that does NOT mean God made them to sin.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
I am re-posting the scriptures cited by GT adding some comments of my own.

Ezekiel 18:23
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."


Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

1. The Lord says He does not delight in the death of the wicked but, if he created certain people specifically to be "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" then why would He not be overjoyed? When the wicked die and enter hell they will have finally realized the very purpose for which they have been created. The fact that God is not happy about the outcome shows that it was not what He wanted for them.

2. We do not need to speculate about what God really wants for the wicked for He says so Himself. Instead of dying (and entering Eternity in a state of wickedness) God would rather that they turn from their evil ways and turn to Him.

3. The prophet, speaking for God, issues this agonized plea "Why then will you die, O house of Israel" Why indeed? There is no reason to go on in their wickedness and die when there was a way of escape. However, there would be a very good reason to continue the way they were going If they had no other choice. That reason would be God Himself who had predetermined both that they should be wicked and that they should inevitably be recipients of divine anger. If that is true, then why does God need to ask? Why act like they had a choice when they did not? Is this just theater, a morality play?

4. Reading these scriptures without any presuppositions how could anyone conclude that it was really God Himself who was guiding them irresistibly them towards destruction...while simultaneously pleading with them to repent? Would Israel have understood the prophecy this way? There is no evidence for this view in the text. Taken as it stands these verses say that God really wanted Israel to repent but that they refused His call and His warning.

5. It is evident then that God's call is not irresistible and that people whom God genuinely wants to turn around can refuse to listen. This is exactly the how Jesus described God's struggle with His own people in Luke 13:34.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
The scriptures do NOT say God created these people to sin. The vessels of wrath do NOT mean God willed them to sin, for the scriptures say PLAINLY that God wants all to repent. The scripture you referenced is about people who only live for their flesh cannot please God---that does NOT mean God made them to sin.
Click to expand...
Foolish comment! He created them Vessels of Wrath. Sin brings Gods Wrath. Eph 5:6

6*Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

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