You think people do not have wills?
Free Will
- Thread starter Aetheryn
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You think people do not have wills?
Nanja
Well-known member
Prov 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
That includes the will of man.
beloved57
Well-known member
Yeah they have wills and responsible, accountable wills at that, but not free from #1 sin and #2 the Sovereign God.
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You contradict scripture. God does not command evil. Example text is Jeremiah 19:5.
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Was that a yes?
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
"But, "let him who boasts, boast in the Lord. "" 2 Corinthians 10:17
"God is love." 1 John 4:8
I will boast of His great love "all the day long".
Nanja
Well-known member
God has created all of mankind to have a will that He has predestined them to have, according to His Will and Purpose.
Job 23:13-14
But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
God's Will is Sovereign over all others' wills.
Nanja, if someone has a will, then it is inherently "free."
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Nanja
Well-known member
What scripture says that?
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Ahh... but the conclusion on Paul's long diatribe on providence is ignored.
"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Romans 11:32
Followed by Paul's humble admission that this all is beyond us. "How unsearchable His judgements, His paths beyond tracing." Romans 11:33
One thing we do know. Calvin's attack on God's love and mercy comes straight from the pit of Hell.
beloved57
Well-known member
Not while you teaching a false gospel! That Christ died for everyone without exception! Until you repent of that heresy you are boasting in the flesh!
Oh dear, it seems that you've become infected with the "whatscripturesaysthat" disease.
Nanja, You do realize that there is truth outside the Bible, right? We can use logic and reason on topics without always requiring scripture to back up our beliefs. Would you agree?
So when I say, "all will is inherently free," that's a statement from logic, not from scripture. Even God Himself wants us to reason together. (That's in Isaiah, by the way.)
That reminds me... Does the Bible ever say that people are outside of God's will?
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beloved57
Well-known member
Your reasoning is the same as them Paul addressed here Rom 9:17-21
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
You repliest against God, that is your pride against God!
Was that a yes?
Nanja
Well-known member
Nanja
Well-known member
Again, all men have a will but it's not free.
God does all things according to His Will Dan. 4:35.
Only God's Will is Free and Sovereign and controls and determines all others' will.
Nanja, no one here yet (afaik) denies that God does things according to His will.
The issue here is not God's will, it's man's will, but your comment brings up another question:
Can God change His mind about what he wants someone to do?
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I guess the main issue I'm having is that if God predestined all things how beloved57 describes, then there is no room for growth. I believe God hopes for man to grow and accept his love.
If he has already predestined some to burn in hell and some to go to heaven, then there is no room for modern and ancient humans to grow
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If he has already predestined some to burn in hell and some to go to heaven, then there is no room for modern and ancient humans to grow
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Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Works, pride, effort?
"Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God, and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. " Romans 10:3
Pride attempts to establish one's own righteousness. Which is fruitless endeavour. Submission to God's righteousness is done with true humility. Its a choice to abandon the self to rely upon God. It is recognized weakness. Paul said "When I am weak then I am strong".
I have have submitted perfectly. No! What do we do? "Press on" as Paul exhorts in Philippians 3.
Do you submit perfectly, worship perfectly? Of course not. Either you will seek more of Him, more dependence upon Him or you won't. He has laid before us the paths of life and death. One is pride one is dependence upon Him.