Free Will
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Nanja
Well-known member
So True! The fact is, man doesn't have a freewill, but is totally dependent on the Work of God in his behalf!
He doesn't have the ability to believe, or place his own carnal faith in Christ Rom. 8:8 to obtain Salvation John 5:40.
It's only by the Father's drawing a person to Christ which results in New Birth, and only then shall he be given hearing ears Prov. 20:12 and be a partaker of the inward teaching of the Spirit and be taught of God John 6:45.
Does a man commit evil on behalf of God? Or does a man commit evil because he chooses to reject God?
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I need to see the answer to this! Great question.
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ttruscott
Well-known member
Those who reject HIM are not saved, right? And everyone rejects HIM until they change their mind and seek HIM? So the young 20 yr old non-believer gets the same considerations in his non-belief that the 88 yr old non-believer who comes to her death time and finally accepts Christ as her saviour? I thought GOD did not consider persons when HE disciplines and judges sin. If HE waits 88 yrs for one person why does HE not wait 88 yrs for all? Where does this favouritism come from?
And if HE wants everyone to be saved, why does HE wait only 20 or 50 years or even only to the end of life for people and not for another life or a million new lives? What is it to HIM to wait...HE is perfect love and love is perfectly patient - it costs HIM nothing to wait for as long as it takes IF ALL IT TAKES IS HIS PATIENCE!!! If your theology is as you claim then hell is empty and Christ sounds the fool.
I contend that some people, Satan and his angels, (the goats, the people of the evil one), have all put themselves outside of HIS grace by blaspheming against the Holy Spirit by claiming HE is a liar and a false god and the worst sinner in all reality because HE was the first liar. Thus they can't be forgiven and without grace, they cannot cure themselves from their addictive enslavement to evil and must be banished to the outer darkness (outside our reality) so their leaven (evil) cannot leaven (corrupt) the whole lump of reality, including heaven.
I've asked similar questions before, and still have not received an answer. As a response, b57 even put me on his ignore list because I asked something similar that challenged his core beliefs. Just a few examples:
- Did God predestine babies to be sacrificed by their parents (God's people) on the altar to Molech?
- Did it ever enter God's mind that His people would do such a thing?
- Did God predestine down to the picosecond how long a pedophile would molest a child, how long the videotape would be of the act, how long a rapist would rape his victim, how long a psychopath would torture his victim?
- Does God command men to do evil?
These questions and more have been asked of the Calvinists in this thread, and no answer has been received.
Other questions remain, such as does God change? Is He all-powerful, or does he delegate authority? Was He sovereign before creation, or did He become sovereign after He created? Is God affected by His creation?
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Nanja
Well-known member
A man is wicked because he is not of God; but of the seed of the wicked one John 8:44.
Ps. 37:28
For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever:
but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
But I you claim men don't have a free will, so did God command certain men to be of the wicked one?
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Jamie Gigliotti
New member
I've already admitted I need to be more humble. That charge is not advancing your argument.
Nanja
Well-known member
Only the Elect of God were chosen In Union with Christ to be holy and without blame before Him in Love Eph. 1:4 and to have forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His Grace Eph. 1:7.
beloved57
Well-known member
Amen Sister! Away with this freewill nonsense!
beloved57
Well-known member
That is the same reasoning of them that repliest against God! So Paul's answer applies to you. Rom 9:19-22
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
beloved57
Well-known member
Im glad you admitted it, that is where your Christ died for all men without exception leads you, to being full of pride!
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Oooh, I almost forgot about the potter and the clay. I love the example because Calvinists use it but don't understand it well enough, and so they try to use it as an example of predestination, but when it is examined, it's a more powerful tool of free will than it is of predestination, which it completely nullifies.
Instead of using the Romans passage, we'll use the passage in Jeremiah, which is what the Romans passage is referring to.
Jeremiah 18:
[MENTION=15399]Nanja[/MENTION]
In verses 3 and 4, we see that the potter is making something, but the clay had perhaps some sort of impurity or defect in it or maybe the shape didn't come out right, so the potter, who was forming the clay into one sort of vessel, stops making it into that vessel, and starts making it into something else.
First question: Was the potter done making it into the first vessel? Or did he stop part way through to start forming the vessel he was making into something else?
If you answered that the potter was done with the vessel when he changed it, the answer of a Calvinist, then you would be incorrect, and I question your knowledge of pottery making, as when a potter is done forming a vessel out of clay and is satisfied with it, he fires it in a kiln to harden the clay, after which the clay CANNOT be reformed. Below, I will draw the parallels between this story and free will. But for now, let's continue.
In verse 6, God is asking if He can do with Israel what the potter did with the clay, and form it however He wants. He asks that if He says He will do something based on conditions, and then those conditions change, does He not have the right to not do what He said he would do, to change His mind.
Second question: Does God reserve the right to change His mind in this passage? Or does He say that He will always do what He says, regardless of the circumstances?
To answer this question, I'd like to provide an example that everyone who has a family can understand:
A father says to his son that if he behaves and treats his mother with respect, on Saturday the father promises to take the whole family to Silver Dollar City (a really great place to go, by the way, though I haven't been there in years). And so the son behaves and treats his mother with respect throughout the week. But on Saturday as they're on their way to Silver Dollar City, the son starts to misbehave and starts disrespecting his mother. So the Father says that since the boy misbehaved and disrespected his mother, he turns the car around and drives all the way home, and did not go to Silver Dollar City. The boy, of course, starts complaining that the father said that he would take them to the park.
Final question: Did the father lie to the son when He promised to take the family to the theme park? Did he break that promise? Or did the boy break the conditions of the agreement when he disobeyed his father?
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Free Will Defined
Free Will Defined
God gave man free will. By "free will" I mean the moral ability to choose according to our greatest inclinations at the moment we so choose.
See:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...here-Between&p=4626102&viewfull=1#post4626102
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-vs-Enyart)&p=1535835&viewfull=1#post1535835
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ch-is-of-God&p=4885079&viewfull=1#post4885079
AMR
Free Will Defined
God gave man free will. By "free will" I mean the moral ability to choose according to our greatest inclinations at the moment we so choose.
See:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...here-Between&p=4626102&viewfull=1#post4626102
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-vs-Enyart)&p=1535835&viewfull=1#post1535835
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ch-is-of-God&p=4885079&viewfull=1#post4885079
AMR
Last edited:
"Free will" is a tautology. If it's not free, it's not a will.
You're the first person in all of the Free Will threads I've seen who has made this accurate observation.
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