Free Will

[Clete]

Explain?

Matthew 8:10 implies (at least) that Jesus was seeking faith. He tells the Centurion that He had not found such faith as his in Israel. The fact that He hadn't found it seems to suggest that He was looking for it.

I bet there's a better argument to be made than that but that was the first that came to mind.

 

[musterion]

Awhile back, I found an atheist message board where TOL was named as a great place for atheists to troll, disguised as believers. One of them described his long undetected run here (and also named yours truly as a pain in the butt, something that I'm proud of in this case).

B57 is an evasive, one-liner, nuts and bolts Calvinist who will not get into true exchange of ideas...leading me to suspect that he is in fact a long-game moby just here to have fun at the expense of whoever is dumb enough to take him seriously. He is not, by the way, the only possible moby on TOL. Not by a long shot.

Despite all that, B57's version of Calvinism is hands down THE MOST INTERNALLY CONSISTENT version of Calvinism presented on TOL. He takes a premise and fearlessly follows it through to its logical conclusion, however horrendous it may be. No tapdancing, downplaying or demurring. He presents Calvinism straight up in all its internally consistent blasphemous ugliness.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Awhile back, I found an atheist message board where TOL was named as a great place for atheists to troll, disguised as believers. One of them described his long undetected run here (and also named yours truly as a pain in the butt, something that I'm proud of in this case).

B57 is an evasive, one-liner, nuts and bolts Calvinist who will not get into true exchange of ideas...leading me to suspect that he is in fact a long-game moby just here to have fun at the expense of whoever is dumb enough to take him seriously. He is not, by the way, the only possible moby on TOL. Not by a long shot.

Despite all that, B57's version of Calvinism is hands down THE MOST INTERNALLY CONSISTENT version of Calvinism presented on TOL. He takes a premise and fearlessly follows it through to its logical conclusion, however horrendous it may be. No tapdancing, downplaying or demurring. He presents Calvinism straight up in all its internally consistent blasphemous ugliness.

You might be on to something there.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus had faith in man.

What is said here by the Apostle John leads me to question that:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man" (Jn.2:23-25).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you believe in the total depravity/inability of man by nature as the scripture teaches?

If man is "totally" incapable by nature of doing good then we surely wouldn't read this:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Again, chances are you are reprobate!

 

[beloved57]

If man is "totally" incapable by nature of doing good then we surely wouldn't read this:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

Okay, I read it. Now, back to Rom 8:7-8,

[FONT=&quot]7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.[/FONT]

 

[God's Truth]

All can and does mean some, so you made a statement out of ignorance!

No, it is not all of the saved; it is all men, the whole world.

1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

That scripture right there should stop any one from ever misunderstanding and believing Calvinism ever again. How much plainer language does it have to be? “Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.” All men have the chance to obey and believe.

 

[God's Truth]

Do you believe in the total depravity/inability of man by nature as the scripture teaches?

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Nowhere anywhere does the Bible say that all men ever born are all total depraved.

 

[beloved57]

The second point of tulip which is part of the Gospel of Gods Grace, which you pawn off disdainfully as the mere doctrine of a sinful man, it unconditional election of grace. That God has mercifully chosen from amongst mankind a elect remnant of Grace, which is called the election of grace Rom 11:5-6

⁵ Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
⁶ And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

This purpose of election is uncondional, not based upon what man does Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
May God hold you accountable !

 

[beloved57]

No, it is not all of the saved; it is all men, the whole world.

1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

That scripture right there should stop any one from ever misunderstanding and believing Calvinism ever again. How much plainer language does it have to be? “Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.” All men have the chance to obey and believe.

All does mean some !

 

[beloved57]

Nowhere anywhere does the Bible say that all men ever born are all total depraved.

Those in the flesh, which is all men by nature, cannot please God Rom 8:8. They cant submit/obey God Rom 8:7 because their mind is enmity against God !

 

[clefty]

Matthew 8:10 implies (at least) that Jesus was seeking faith. He tells the Centurion that He had not found such faith as his in Israel. The fact that He hadn't found it seems to suggest that He was looking for it.

I bet there's a better argument to be made than that but that was the first that came to mind.

I use Matt 5:46"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same?"

Some translations use pagans instead of Gentiles...Luke has it as even sinners love those that love them...


The point is that here in the sermon on the mount Yahushua is teaching we are to love AS HE Loved...beyond what is normally taught and certainly beyond what was being practiced...

He here is instructing that even those outside His law practice love goodness niceness political correct kindness to each other...man is capable of doing so...

That is why when Christians insist it's all about love love love and not the law I tend to remind them that even pagans love each other...what they don't do is love WITH HIS LOVE.

 

[God's Truth]

Awhile back, I found an atheist message board where TOL was named as a great place for atheists to troll, disguised as believers. One of them described his long undetected run here (and also named yours truly as a pain in the butt, something that I'm proud of in this case).

B57 is an evasive, one-liner, nuts and bolts Calvinist who will not get into true exchange of ideas...leading me to suspect that he is in fact a long-game moby just here to have fun at the expense of whoever is dumb enough to take him seriously. He is not, by the way, the only possible moby on TOL. Not by a long shot.

Despite all that, B57's version of Calvinism is hands down THE MOST INTERNALLY CONSISTENT version of Calvinism presented on TOL. He takes a premise and fearlessly follows it through to its logical conclusion, however horrendous it may be. No tapdancing, downplaying or demurring. He presents Calvinism straight up in all its internally consistent blasphemous ugliness.

I do not agree. He repeats the same scripture that he does not understand and he does it as a reply to most all posts.

Faith only teachers and Calvinists are half siblings, in my opinion.

Jesus says believe and obey.
Calvinists say, no, not until you save me.
Faith only say, I will believe, but I will not obey until you save me.
A true worshiper of Christ says, I will believe and obey.

 

[God's Truth]

Okay, I read it. Now, back to Rom 8:7-8,

[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]7 [/B][/FONT]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for[B] it is not subject to the law of God[/B], [B]neither indeed can be.[/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.[/FONT]

Not all only have a carnal mind.

All humans are flesh, and they also have a spirit.

Some people only want to please their flesh.

Those are the ones who can never please God.

Some people are inclined more to their spirit.

Those are the people who want more out of life and search for God.

 

[beloved57]

I do not agree. He repeats the same scripture that he does not understand and he does it as a reply to most all posts.

Faith only teachers and Calvinists are half siblings, in my opinion.

Jesus says believe and obey.
Calvinists say, no, not until you save me.
Faith only say, I will believe, but I will not obey until you save me.
A true worshiper of Christ says, I will believe and obey.

False teaching. Those Christ lived and died for, obeyed for, they shall be made righteous, by One Obedience Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[beloved57]

Not all only have a carnal mind.

All humans are flesh, and they also have a spirit.

Some people only want to please their flesh.

Those are the ones who can never please God.

Some people are inclined more to their spirit.

Those are the people who want more out of life and search for God.

Yes all men by nature are carnal. None by nature can please God !

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[God's Truth]

All does mean some !

No way, for all means all men just as the scriptures say.

All means the whole world.


1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Did you read that?
...sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes all men by nature are carnal. None by nature can please God !

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No not all men are so carnal that they cannot hear the truth and believe.

 

[beloved57]

No way, for all means all men just as the scriptures say.

All means the whole world.


1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Did you read that?
...sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

All in those scriptures means some, the Elect.

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