Free Will

[Nanja]

If God wants all men to be saved; why arent they all saved?

Or are you saying 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is false?

1 Tim. 2:3-4 is not referring to individuals; but rather people, nations, ethnicity, rank; i.e. All sorts of men [mankind] whether jew or gentile.


So the "all men" whom God wills to be Saved, are the The "many" Christ gave His Life a ransom for.

Mat. 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The same "many" that were made Righteous by Christ's obedience in His Life and Death for them.

Rom. 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

All those given Him of the Father.

Eph. 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

John 6:37-39
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


So who exactly are the "all men" that it's God's Desire to be Saved?
Paul tells us in verse 10:

2 Tim. 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The Elect are the "many" that were ordained to Eternal Life Acts 13:48.

Eph. 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

2 Tim. 1:8-9
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

 

[Clete]

Clete, my statement stands. Thank you.

It stands corrected.

 

[Clete]

I most certainly deny what this poster claimed, and I have already given answer here:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?122468-Free-Will&p=4897084&viewfull=1#post4897084

Why is your heart and mind so eager and ready to bear false witness against others who testify of faith in Christ Jesus?

Typical Calvinist double talk. You keep forgetting that I'm not a mindless idiot.

You say sinners deserve Hell but believe that God predestined them to be sinners and to NOT be saved. Thus, in your vacuous mind, the doctrines of Calvinism literally are the doctrines of the gospel. The "good news" according to you, isn't that God sent His Son to die so that we MIGHT be saved (as the scripture teaches) but rather the "good news" is that God predestined us to be saved. The means by which that is accomplished, according to your blasphemous doctrine is NOT the cross and the Blood shed there but God's immutable decree and nothing else. According to you and Calvin, rather than sending God the Son to die, He could, just as easily, have snapped His holy fingers and allowed the sound of it to atone for our sin. The fact that He did it the way He did was not for any reason or cause but purely and only because of God's causeless (i.e. arbitrary) and immutable will.

All Calvinists - ALL OF THEM - are fools. You most especially.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[beloved57]

God says we have to believe in Him before He saves us!

NOWHERE anywhere do the scriptures have a hidden message that says what Calvinism teaches, and that is that God supernaturally saves people without their knowing or wanting.

God does NOT regenerate/save people who do not believe in Him.

More lying, those Christ died for are reconciled, made right with God while they are enemies hating and opposing God Rom 5:10

 

[beloved57]

In addition to common sense Romans 10:9

That scripture doesnt say man has a freewill !

 

[God's Truth]

More lying, those Christ died for are reconciled, made right with God while they are enemies hating and opposing God Rom 5:10

Psalm 91:14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.

1 Samuel 2:30
"Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: 'I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.' But now the LORD declares: 'Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.

John 14:21
The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

 

[Clete]

You are acting as if you are as dumb as the day is long

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You give him far too much credit.

He isn't acting. He's dead serious.

He is exemplifying the difference between blind belief and wisdom. God Himself could not convince him to move one inch away from Calvin.

He has intentionally disengaged his mind. You might as well debate a sack of door hinges or the concrete in your driveway.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[beloved57]

Psalm 91:14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.

1 Samuel 2:30
"Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: 'I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.' But now the LORD declares: 'Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.

John 14:21
The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

Those Christ died for, by His death, reconciled them to God, while they were enemies hating and opposing God Rom 5:10 !

 

[JudgeRightly]

That scripture doesnt say man has a freewill !

You should really go through these four links, since you are in denial that God said it never crossed His mind that His people would do the things they did.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...s-God-Know-Your-Entire-Future-Battle-Royale-X

http://kgov.com/will-debates-open-theism

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...nd-TNAR-s-Dr-Larry-Bray&p=2673788#post2673788

http://kgov.com/open-theism

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[God's Truth]

Those Christ died for, by His death, reconciled them to God, while they were enemies hating and opposing God Rom 5:10 !

They were GENTILE enemies of God BEFORE Jesus because they did not get circumcised and come into the covenant of God.

Jesus saved them and didn't require them to get circumcised.

 

[Eagles Wings]

It stands corrected.

mmm hmm

 

[intojoy]

Somehow God allowed for the fall to take place.
Jerry.
Here's how it should be treated my son.

God knew that created beings who began holy creatures who in a state of unconfirmed righteousness had the potential to make a choice contrary to their nature (to sin).
God allowed the creative process to move forward in full awareness that not only would some of the angels rebel but so too would Adam. God allowed for the creation of all created beings to materialize because of His great love. He preplanned the salvation of man before the creation was initiated. God knowing that sin would enslave Adam to the point that Adam could NOT choose to repent and thereby accept forgiveness (proved by him hiding)so God in His love, before creation began decided to provide (supernatural)enabling, divine enablement for Adam to exercise his will to obey the truth. Without this enabling no one has the free will to exercise their merits by choosing God. No not even one. But praise be to our God who gives us the victory in Christ Jesus our Lord thru the completed work of the cross that includes enablement for us to receive forgiveness.

 

[Aetheryn]

So is it unjust to believe that God did NOT give us free will?

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[Nang]

You say sinners deserve Hell but believe that God predestined them to be sinners and to NOT be saved.

God knew, before He created, that human beings (even though created in His image) would fall short of His glory and holy demands, and would not qualify to inherit His glory; however, it was the will, purpose, plan, and promise that Jesus Christ would be given an everlasting kingdom and share that inheritance with a people.

You cannot disagree with the above, for this is the teaching of Paul in Ephesians and Romans.

Thus, in your vacuous mind, the doctrines of Calvinism literally are the doctrines of the gospel.

The Gospel is the message that it proved necessary, in order to fulfill God's will, purposes, plans, and promises, that Jesus Christ would incarnate like His brethren, suffer and die for their sinful failure, and resurrect bodily in order that they might also resurrect into His glory and live with Him in His kingdom, forever.

You cannot disagree with the above, for it is all Truth revealed in Holy Scripture.*

The "good news" according to you, isn't that God sent His Son to die so that we MIGHT be saved (as the scripture teaches) but rather the "good news" is that God predestined us to be saved. The means by which that is accomplished, according to your blasphemous doctrine is NOT the cross and the Blood shed there but God's immutable decree and nothing else.

That is what you say. It is not my testimony. Never has been . . .

You accuse me by bearing false witness . . . again.

According to you and Calvin, rather than sending God the Son to die, He could, just as easily, have snapped His holy fingers and allowed the sound of it to atone for our sin.

This abides in your imagination, only. It is how you want to interpret the Reform Faith, but you do so from the dregs of your own mind . . not from any testimony of mine, or any actual quotes from Calvin.

The fact that He did it the way He did was not for any reason or cause but purely and only because of God's causeless (i.e. arbitrary) and immutable will.

What I say above.

All Calvinists - ALL OF THEM - are fools. You most especially.

Unnecessary hate speech.

You would do well to remember Jesus' words in Matthew 5:21-22

*Scripture references available, if you need me to provide them.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Without this enabling no one has the free will to exercise their merits by choosing God. No not even one.

It is the gospel itself which enables a person to believe. That is why He sends His servants out to preach the gospel and those who believe it are saved.

Besides that, man's "will" plays no part in "believing." Instead, "believing" is based on whether or not a person has enough "evidence" to convince him that something is true.

You can try as hard as possible in order to try to "will" yourself to believe something but unless you have the "evidence" that something is true then you will not be able to believe it.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).​

 

[intojoy]

So is it unjust to believe that God did NOT give us free will?

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I don't think it's unjust because I am only a created being that can not know the creator or his creation to the extent that Eve believed she could know Him and it when she followed the lie of the evil one. Any feeling of right or wrong within me is based from the created's perspective based in human emotion.
That is why I believe that scripture is the final authority in all matters pertaining to man. And on the subject of the program of man's salvation some of the details are not given and I stick to what is there and don't go beyond what is written. A similar antinomy is the subject of the trinity of the Godhead. Can it be fully explained? No. Does scripture teach plurality in the God head and is that plurality limited to three persons Father, Son and Spirit? Yes.

 

[Nang]

So is it unjust to believe that God did NOT give us free will?

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God did give Adam and Eve free agency (will) to cause and effect their actions and surroundings in the very beginning, but that agency was deliberately abused and used against God's Word and Law . . also given to them to obey.

Since then, the human agency, to which all men are still responsible and accountable and all are answerable to God for, under the Law, has been lost and surrendered and enslaved to serving only sin, death and the devil.

This is the cause and necessity for the Gospel message of salvation that is found only in the Son of God exercising His truly free will, to come as a Man into this world, to free His people from this bondage. (I recommend you read Martin Luther's book, "The Bondage Of The Will,")

 

[Nang]

Somehow God allowed for the fall to take place.
Jerry.
Here's how it should be treated my son.

God knew that created beings who began holy creatures who in a state of unconfirmed righteousness had the potential to make a choice contrary to their nature (to sin).
God allowed the creative process to move forward in full awareness that not only would some of the angels rebel but so too would Adam. God allowed for the creation of all created beings to materialize because of His great love. He preplanned the salvation of man before the creation was initiated. God knowing that sin would enslave Adam to the point that Adam could NOT choose to repent and thereby accept forgiveness (proved by him hiding)so God in His love, before creation began decided to provide (supernatural)enabling, divine enablement for Adam to exercise his will to obey the truth. Without this enabling no one has the free will to exercise their merits by choosing God. No not even one. But praise be to our God who gives us the victory in Christ Jesus our Lord thru the completed work of the cross that includes enablement for us to receive forgiveness.

One of your finest posts . . .

 

[intojoy]

It is the gospel itself which enables a person to believe. That is why He sends His servants out to preach the gospel and those who believe it are saved.

Besides that, man's "will" plays no part in "believing." Instead, "believing" is based on whether or not a person has enough "evidence" to convince him that something is true.

You can try as hard as possible in order to try to "will" yourself to believe something but unless you have the "evidence" that something is true then you will not be able to believe it.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).​

You know jerry sometimes we are on the same wavelength. Why preach? I mean if it's done why bother?
Because God has included the means in the end results. He included me teaching you things even tho He knew you'd come around to the light someday anyways bud.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You know jerry sometimes we are on the same wavelength. Why preach? I mean if it's done why bother? Because God has included the means in the end results. He included me teaching you things even tho He knew you'd come around to the light someday anyways bud.

Yes, without you pops I would have never come to the knowledge of the truth and now I sing the old Hank Williams song, "I saw the light, I saw the light, no more darkness, no more night."