Frankin Graham says forgive this guy.

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
If Jesus could explicitly forgive those who tortured Him and put him on the cross (and who were obviously not repentant), then I think we are not too good to forgive those who trespass against us.

What did Jesus forgive them for? What did He say?

When in doubt, read the instructions:

Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

If you really didn't know, that would explain some of your difficulty. If Jesus saw fit to forgive unrepentent sinners who tortured and killed Him, who are we to refuse to forgive?

Barbarian observes:
As I said, any of you who think He was wrong, are free to do it your own way, but I will follow God.

Great!

It would be greater if you would join us.

You believe some people are in hell?

Yep.

Why aren't they forgiven and in heaven?

The door to Hell is locked on the inside. God would have them, if they would have God. Perhaps they are unwilling to forgive others who trespassed against them.

 

[bob b]

Forgiveness is different than paying a penalty for our wrongs.
Jesus said forgive why don't you see he said forgive?
If it was one of my family members that was shot, I would have to forgive them, even though it would be a struggle I am sure.
Then I could choose the other option to hold bitterness and hate for the rest of my life.
That would only hurt me.
This don't mean they should not spend the rest of their life in prison or even the death penalty.

If everybody forgives them then why do they have to stay in prison?

Sounds like cheap forgiveness to me.

 

[jeremiah]

What did Jesus forgive them for? What did He say?

Great! But you didn't answer my question....

I asked...

You believe some people are in hell? Why aren't they forgiven and in heaven?

Excellent question!

If Jesus has commanded us to forgive everyone, without criteria or exception, because that is what you think that He does, then hell is empty and heaven is huge.

Also you must forgive everyone who has not forgiven Cho. Also we must remember that if you are forgiving Cho for his murders, then you are likewise forgiving him for not forgiving his victims, who he, in effect, claimed that they deserved to be murdered, and not forgiven.

Which is it harder to forgive Cho of, his murders, or his unforgiveness?

Or is heaven filled with murderers, and hell filled with those who did not forgive them?





:think:

 

[Silk Queen]

If everybody forgives them then why do they have to stay in prison?

Sounds like cheap forgiveness to me.

Ok say I have a daughter that was murdered I can forgive him but he still will have to serve his time or penalty for murder, that is what I am saying.
How is this cheap?
Jesus says forgive how hard is that to understand?
I realize for someone to forgive may not be easy but according to Jesus we are supposed to.
This is not saying let them walk free, the perpetrator will still have to pay for the crime.
Maybe with his life.

 

[The Barbarian]

Ok say I have a daughter that was murdered I can forgive him but he still will have to serve his time or penalty for murder, that is what I am saying.
How is this cheap?

It's not cheap. You have it exactly right. Forgiveness does not equate to "no consequences."

Jesus says forgive how hard is that to understand. I realize for someone to forgive may not be easy but according to Jesus we are supposed to.
This is not saying let them walk free, the perpetrator will still have to pay for the crime. Maybe with his life.

Exactly. That is what God expects of us.

 

[Silk Queen]

It would be both economically efficient as well as the Christian thing to do to forgive the sins of all criminals and thus empty out all our costly prisons.

You are talking about let the criminal go free, Which I don't believe anyone would agree with.
I am talking that we are suppossed to forgive those that wrong us, it is a personal thing. The perpetrator still may have prison or the death penalty which is right.
He has to pay for his horrible crime regardless.
As far as this school shooting the perpetrator is dead he can't serve time or be held before the courts, yet Jesus says forgive.
I don't have to forgive him because he did me no wrong.
Franklin Graham is right he is doing what Jesus says.

 

[The Barbarian]

Also you must forgive everyone who has not forgiven Cho.

They are not harming me. They are harming themselves by distancing themselves from God. I would of course forgive them, and I pray that they can find the strength and faith to forgive Cho.

Also we must remember that if you are forgiving Cho for his murders, then you are likewise forgiving him for not forgiving his victims, who he, in effect, claimed that they deserved to be murdered, and not forgiven.

Forgiving him for being delusional? That's not a sin. It's a mental disorder. Even if he shot someone dear to me, God would want me to forgive him.

Which is it harder to forgive Cho of, his murders, or his unforgiveness?

You're a little confused here. These people apparently did nothing to Cho. However, it seems a lot of people in his high school treated him very badly. With deadly consequences later. We are also to forgive them.

Or is heaven filled with murderers, and hell filled with those who did not forgive them?

If you cannot forgive, you cannot share life with God. I wish I could say it was otherwise for you, but that is how it is.

A murderer who repents and accepts God is saved, but one who will not forgive him, puts his salvation at risk.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The door to Hell is locked on the inside. God would have them, if they would have God. Perhaps they are unwilling to forgive others who trespassed against them.

So God doesn't forgive some???

I thought you said God forgives even the unrepentant?

 

[noguru]

If Jesus could explicitly forgive those who tortured Him and put him on the cross (and who were obviously not repentant), then I think we are not too good to forgive those who trespass against us.

As I said, any of you who think He was wrong, are free to do it your own way, but I will follow God.

Jesus said; "Forgive them for they know not what they do." This is inline with our legal definition of insanity. Which states that a person can take an insanity plea if they can demonstrate that they did not know the difference between right and wrong.

For those who knowingly do wrong and are not repentant, I believe forgiveness is futile. Because they will more than likely do wrong again.

 

[The Barbarian]

I thought you said God forgives even the unrepentant?

He was hanging on the cross, after being tortured and mocked by unrepentent Romans. And He forgave them.

That is His way. You can do it His way, or yours. But do it forthrightly; don't pretend it's His way.

 

[The Barbarian]

Jesus said; "Forgive them for they know not what they do." This is inline with our legal definition of insanity. Which states that a person can take an insanity plea if they can demonstrate that they did not know the difference between right and wrong.

You don't think the killer in this case was insane? If he wasn't insane, there is no insanity. The Romans, on the other hand, were not insane. But He forgave them anyway.

If God himself can forgive evil like that, who are we to set ourselves about Him?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

He was hanging on the cross, after being tortured and mocked by unrepentent Romans. And He forgave them.

That is His way. You can do it His way, or yours. But do it forthrightly; don't pretend it's His way.

But He doesn't forgive all, right?

You agree some are in hell.

So... why does He not forgive ALL the unrepentant?

 

[noguru]

You don't think the killer in this case was insane? If he wasn't insane, there is no insanity. The Romans, on the other hand, were not insane. But He forgave them anyway.

If God himself can forgive evil like that, who are we to set ourselves about Him?

The cause of the ignorance is irrelevant. The common theme is ignorance of the right action. The Romans were ignorant because they were kept in the dark by the Roman and Jewish establishment. People who are deemed insane by the courts are seen as not being able to determine for themselves the difference between right and wrong. In the case of Jesus' crucifixion, the Roman's who crucified him were kept in the dark by their superiors regarding the evidence against Him.

 

[The Barbarian]

So, then, because the killer at Va. Tech was insane, we should forgive him.

Knight, I understand. You take one side, Jesus takes the other. Not much of a choice, is it?

 

[Turbo]

Do you think murder victims in heaven have an attitude of forgiveness or a desire for vengeance towards their unrepentant murderers?

I think they are, if they know about them, filled with pity for such souls who would likely be in Hell with Satan. If we truly follow God, who says that He is unwilling that any be lost, then we would feel likewise.

You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Revelation 6:9-10​

You can read on to see what God's answer was. He did not rebuke these Christian murder victims for longing for vengeance against their murderers.

God specifically tells us to forgive those who trespass against us, and He didn't say "forgive those who trespass against us, if they are repentent."

Yes, He did! He specifically tells us to forgive others if they repent, and to withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant.

[jesus]Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.[/jesus] Luke 17:3​

Why is the phrase "if he repents" in there? According to your view, forgiveness should not be conditional upon repentance or anything else. If should be "If your brother sins against you, forgive him." But that isn't what Jesus taught.

If a man repents, you are obligated to forgive him. But that doesn't mean that you should forgive only the repentent.

Yes, it does. Saying, "if he repents, forgive him" means exactly that.

The record in Matthew 18:15-17 is even more exhaustive and specific regarding what should be done when the rebuked sinner does not repent:

[jesus]Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear,...[/jesus]​

...Forgive him anyway? Not quite:

[jesus] ...take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' And if he refuses to hear them,...[/jesus]​

...Go ahead and forgive him? Nope:

[jesus] tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church,...[/jesus]​

...Then announce that you've forgive him anyway to demonstrate to everyone how magnanimous and "Christlike" you are? Absolutely not:

[jesus] ...let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.[/jesus] ​

So, you can refer to passages where Christ talks about forgiving others without mentioning repentance and assume that He meant that forgiveness should be granted unconditionally and indiscriminately, but you'd be making an argument from silence, and a flimsy one at that. Christ clearly established that forgiveness should be conditional upon repentance; He had no need to reiterate that point every single time He uttered the word "forgive."

You claim that Knight's position is at odds with Christ's on this issue, but you must disregard or twist Christ's clear and explicit instructions to maintain your own position. Hypocrite! You should repent and realign your view with Christ's; don't try to force His to align with yours.


When you insist that Christians should forgive everyone no matter what, you teach the world that they do not need to humble themselves before God. He'll forgive them anyway; after all, his followers forgive everyone no matter what.

 

[drbrumley]

You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Revelation 6:9-10​

You can read on to see what God's answer was. He did not rebuke these Christian murder victims for longing for vengeance against their murderers.

Yes, He did! He specifically tells us to forgive others if they repent, and to withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant.

[jesus]Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.[/jesus] Luke 17:3​

Why is the phrase "if he repents" in there? According to your view, forgiveness should not be conditional upon repentance or anything else. If should be "If your brother sins against you, forgive him." But that isn't what Jesus taught.


Yes, it does. Saying, "if he repents, forgive him" means exactly that.

The record in Matthew 18:15-17 is even more exhaustive and specific regarding what should be done when the rebuked sinner does not repent:

[jesus]Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear,...[/jesus]​

...Forgive him anyway? Not quite:

[jesus] ...take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' And if he refuses to hear them,...[/jesus]​

...Go ahead and forgive him? Nope:

[jesus] tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church,...[/jesus]​

...Then announce that you've forgive him anyway to demonstrate to everyone how magnanimous and "Christlike" you are? Absolutely not:

[jesus] ...let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.[/jesus] ​

So, you can refer to passages where Christ talks about forgiving others without mentioning repentance and assume that He meant that forgiveness should be granted unconditionally and indiscriminately, but you'd be making an argument from silence, and a flimsy one at that. Christ clearly established that forgiveness should be conditional upon repentance; He had no need to reiterate that point every single time He uttered the word "forgive."

You claim that Knight's position is at odds with Christ's on this issue, but you must disregard or twist Christ's clear and explicit instructions to maintain your own position. Hypocrite! You should repent and realign your view with Christ's; don't try to force His to align with yours.


When you insist that Christians should forgive everyone no matter what, you teach the world that they do not need to humble themselves before God. He'll forgive them anyway; after all, his followers forgive everyone no matter what.

Elequent and straightforward as always Turbo! That is my POTY candadate for the Month of April:first:

 

[Turbo]

Indeed, if we're only supposed to forgive those who repent then how can we forgive our enemies or those who persecute us?

When did God ever say that we should forgive our enemies and those who persecute us? Answer: Never.

You are probably thinking of Matthew 5:44:

[jesus]But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[/jesus]​

You probably think that it is loving to forgive others unconditionally for even the most wicked crimes. But if that's the case, your idea of love is shallow and ungodly.

‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. Leviticus 19:17.​

There's no proviso declaring only if they ask for fogiveness,

Yes, there is. And it's been quoted several times in this thread.

the simple fact is it can be a lot harder in life to cling onto anger than to forgive those who hurt us....

Oh, so you should forgive others unconditionally in order to make yourself feel better. Who cares about the spiritual state of the one who needs to repent? The important this is that you will have less stress.

This comment from you reveals that your desire to forgive unconditionally is self-serving, and does not come from a love for your neighbor.

 

[aikido7]

...When you insist that Christians should forgive everyone no matter what, you teach the world that they do not need to humble themselves before God. He'll forgive them anyway; after all, his followers forgive everyone no matter what.

What do you think about forgiveness itself being a humbling before God?

Note that it is in our everyday secular world where people expect a reward for good behavior and punishment for bad. And the theme of reward and punishment can be found throughout the Bible--particularly in the Book of Revalations and in Matthew.

"Don't fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; instead, you ought to fear the one who can destroy both the soul and the body in Gehenna." Matthew 10:8.

"God's messengers will go out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw the evil into the firey furnace. People in that place will weep and grind their teeth." Matthew 13:49-50.

The so-called "Parable of the Last Judgement" confirms these passages. The story of the goats and the sheep at the last judgement, however, is not a parable and it did not originate with Jesus. Punishment seems to be the special contribution of Matthew to the gospels--although both Luke and Mark bring it up as well, only less frequently than Matthew.

But yet in other places in the New Testament, forgiveness seems to be unconditional. Jesus teaches that notions of reward and punishment are intrinsic to the acts and thoughts to which they are related. Jesus left John the Baptist, who with his call for repentance and his vision of the wrath of God, belonged to the world and not the Kingdom of God preached by Jesus.

Jesus did not call for repentance and did not threaten with God's wrath. He does not make accusations of an ultimate nature and is not judgemental. This does not mean that Jesus is not critical; he clearly was, and was often caustic with his words. But he does not condemn and his basic principle is reciprocity: Forgive and you'll be forgiven. He asks those who follow him to beg the Father to forgive their obligations to the same extent they have forgiven the debts owed to them. Jesus' God is generous to all alike (Matthew 5:45). God is impartial. The authentic Jesus did not make pronouncements about the fate of persons after death. Heaven's in good shape, he seems to say. His entire earthly mission was an explicit message that it is here on earth where we need the Father's blessings.

When he does speak about rewards, they are in the context of ethics:

If you love those who love you, why should you be commended for that? Even the toll collectors do as much, don't they? To sum up, Jesus tells us that we are to be as liberal in our love as our heavenly Father is (Matthew 5:46-48).

The rewards that Jesus speaks of are fundamentally innate to the deeds for which they are the reward. And punishment is the failure to realize one is a child of God.

Both punishment and forgiveness can be found in the gospel tradition--sometimes side by side. Both cannot represent the same wise mind. Which way is the path of the historical Jesus?

 

[TimMiller]

Did Jesus wait for the people crucifying Him to repent before He forgave them? We are to be an imitation of Christ; if that is what He did, then I will do my best to follow Him.

Amen!

 

[noguru]

Christ did not forgive those who should have known better and did not repent. That is why he rebuked the pharisees for turning his Father's house into a den of theives. He rebuked those who used the letter of the law to subdue the spirit of the law. He did forgive those who genuinely did not know better because of their position or mental state.

I think that this man who killed others out of his hurt and anger knew better. I believe that is why he felt he must justify his actions prior to what he did. He let his anger and his hurt control his better judgement. I may be wrong on whether this man knew better. Only God knows for sure. But I am inclined to believe it was his own lack of forgiveness for those who did not understand what they did to him that led him to commit the acts he committed. He should stand as an example of what not to do. Noone took his life, yet he took other peoples lives and then his own. This tells me he knew that what he was doing was wrong.