Forgiveness

[Clete]

Hi.

I am starting this thread at the suggestion of Rimi. My question is, what are the conditions of my forgiving other people? Here are the two scriptures I would like to cite:

So watch yourselves. 'If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him.' Luke 17:3 NIV

So, that would seem to imply that someone has to repent before I should forgive them. But, when I look somewhere else in the New Testament, I get a bit confused!

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6: 14-15 NIV

So, is repentance a condition of forgiveness? Or, is it the case that if I don't forgive someone, regardless or whether or not they have repented, the Lord will not forgive my sins?

Pete

Did Jesus forgive you before or after you repented and believed?

AFTER!

Don't be nicer than God! It really won't get you anywhere, I promise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Truppenzwei]

You are mistaken. They were barred from Eden and wonderful with God. The world became a harsh place for them to grow crops and eke out a living. Childbearing was made worse then He intended. Woman became subjected to the man, and not so much a helpmate anymore. And from dust they were made, to dust they would return. Sounds like death to me. They were never to touch the Tree of Life.

Semantics.

It is not semantics Rimi. It is about understanding something fully as opposed to having a simplistic view of it.

I am 'alive', I was 'alive' before I became a Christian and I am 'alive' now. At some future point I will 'die' and go to spend an eternal 'life' with God.

You obviously believe that anyone who is not a Christian is dead - which is just wrong.

 

[HisLight]

There is no such thing as unconditional forgiveness with God. There a condition that must be met: repentence.

Rimi,

Does God only forgive the sin you repent of? Is it possible that there is sin in your life that you aren't even aware of and therefore have not repented of?

God forgives all of our sin. We stand before him with the perfect righteousness of Christ.
How does that fit with your assertion that we are only forgiven for sin we confess?

 

[Rimi]

Unfortunately Rimi, it is you that are wrong. Love covers all sins, as the Bible teaches. God's love covered our sins while we were dead in them. He did forgive without repentance, or he would not have covered our sins, and he would not have sent his son to die for them. You seem to be missing that grace is evidence of forgiveness.

Did you also miss the fact the Jesus forgave several people in the Bible BEFORE the cross without them confessing any sin or repenting as you seem to be interpreting the word? Are you just going to ignore that paradox, or the paradox' I have pointed out?

A person repents from unbelief, Rimi. Repentance is NOT when a person says he's sorry to God because he sinned a specific sinful act and he's not going to do it again. Do you undertstand that?

Peace

###

If God's love alone was enough, then Jesus would not have had to die. I can't understand why you don't get this simple point.

As for those Jesus forgave, it was possible that He did so because he could see repentence in the person before Him. Take the two thieves: one ridiculed Him, one asked Him to remember Him. Were they bother forgiven? If so, why didn't Jesus address Himself to the ridiculing thief as well? A person repents from unbelief and a life of filth and sin before a Holy God. Do you understand that?

 

[Rimi]

It is not semantics Rimi. It is about understanding something fully as opposed to having a simplistic view of it.

I am 'alive', I was 'alive' before I became a Christian and I am 'alive' now. At some future point I will 'die' and go to spend an eternal 'life' with God.

You obviously believe that anyone who is not a Christian is dead - which is just wrong.

John 3:18 says they're condemned already. That means not in the Book of Life. So, yes, before asking Christ into our lives we were dead in sin.

 

[Rimi]

Rimi,

Does God only forgive the sin you repent of? Is it possible that there is sin in your life that you aren't even aware of and therefore have not repented of?

God forgives all of our sin. We stand before him with the perfect righteousness of Christ.
How does that fit with your assertion that we are only forgiven for sin we confess?

In my personal case? No. I asked God for forgive me those I couldn't call to mind and those I didn't know about. So, I have no idea what assertion you think I'm making here, HL.

 

[elohiym]

Did Jesus forgive you before or after you repented and believed?

AFTER!

Don't be nicer than God! It really won't get you anywhere, I promise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Care to back that up with any scripture, Clete? Jesus forgave me before I repented, and I can prove that with the Bible. Can you prove that Jesus forgave you after you repented and not before, using the Bible?

###

 

[elohiym]

If God's love alone was enough, then Jesus would not have had to die. I can't understand why you don't get this simple point.

It may be a simple point, brother; but it is simply a faulty point. Jesus had to die, and his blood had to be placed upon the mercy seat to fulfill the law. Under the curse of the law, there is no forgiveness without blood.

WE are under GRACE, not under the law. The significance of Jesus' blood under grace is not identical to its significance under the law. The author of Hebrews puts it this way...

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

From that we can see the purpose of the blood is 1) "for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, and 2) that "they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" under the new testament.

The redemption of the transgressions under the law had to be accomplished to fulfill the law, and to fulfill the new covenant.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

How can the promise that "all nations be blessed" be fulfilled under the curse of the law. If the world is under a curse, it surely cannot be under a blessing?

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So he redeemed us from the curse of the law, and did that with his blood of atonement. And with "one offering he perfected for ever them that are sanctified." That's why he had to die.

You and I were not born under the law, Rimi. The New Testament was written by men that had lived under both covenants with God, and so their writing reflects that. I was not born under a curse, but grace. I was never under the law, because that covenant was finished on the cross, and that was approximately 2000 years ago.

As for those Jesus forgave, it was possible that He did so because he could see repentence in the person before Him. Take the two thieves: one ridiculed Him, one asked Him to remember Him. Were they bother forgiven? If so, why didn't Jesus address Himself to the ridiculing thief as well?

Why does it matter which one was forgiven? The paradox is that he is forgiving anyone before his blood has been spilled upon the mercy seat. That is a paradox, if there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. That doesn't make you stop and think? :think:

A person repents from unbelief and a life of filth and sin before a Holy God. Do you understand that?

A person repents from unbelief, period. Your carnal mind has never been subject to God's law, and it never can be. The only thing that covers your present filth is the righteousness of God. Believe it.

Peace

###

 

[Clete]

Care to back that up with any scripture, Clete? Jesus forgave me before I repented, and I can prove that with the Bible. Can you prove that Jesus forgave you after you repented and not before, using the Bible?

###

Umm, hello? Did you read the openning post? I guess not. :nono:

 

[defcon]

elohiym- if we are not under law but under grace - and have never been under law, then what will the unsaved be judged by? Will every person be saved?

 

[Rimi]

elohiym wrote:

It may be a simple point, brother; but it is simply a faulty point. Jesus had to die, and his blood had to be placed upon the mercy seat to fulfill the law. Under the curse of the law, there is no forgiveness without blood.

Right.

WE are under GRACE, not under the law. The significance of Jesus' blood under grace is not identical to its significance under the law. The author of Hebrews puts it this way...

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

From that we can see the purpose of the blood is 1) "for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, and 2) that "they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" under the new testament.

The redemption of the transgressions under the law had to be accomplished to fulfill the law, and to fulfill the new covenant.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

How can the promise that "all nations be blessed" be fulfilled under the curse of the law. If the world is under a curse, it surely cannot be under a blessing?

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So he redeemed us from the curse of the law, and did that with his blood of atonement. And with "one offering he perfected for ever them that are sanctified." That's why he had to die.

You and I were under the Law until we repented. Period. Had we not repented, by what standard would God judge us at the White Throne?

You and I were not born under the law, Rimi. The New Testament was written by men that had lived under both covenants with God, and so their writing reflects that. I was not born under a curse, but grace. I was never under the law, because that covenant was finished on the cross, and that was approximately 2000 years ago.

All are under the Law until they receive the Grace of Jesus Christ. See my above answer.

Why does it matter which one was forgiven? The paradox is that he is forgiving anyone before his blood has been spilled upon the mercy seat. That is a paradox, if there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. That doesn't make you stop and think? :think:

Uh, Abraham was a man who was accounted as God's friend. And yet scholars do not consider him to have been with God until such time as a way could be found: Christ's atoning death.

A person repents from unbelief, period. Your carnal mind has never been subject to God's law, and it never can be. The only thing that covers your present filth is the righteousness of God. Believe it.

Like Paul, I wouldn't have known how bad I was until I saw the Law. You fail to understand that one day there will be an accounting for those who rejected Christ. And they will be judged NOT just for rejecting Christ. No. Per John 3:18, they are judged for that already, and per Rev 20:1-6 they have no part of the 1000 yr reign. No. In rejecting Christ, they chose to pay the price themselves. And so what are we told: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened, which is the book of Life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Rev 20:12

Question again: By what standard will God judge these people?

 

[Clete]

Did Jesus forgive you before or after you repented and believed?

AFTER!

Don't be nicer than God! It really won't get you anywhere, I promise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I think that I should rephrase this post as follows....


WILL Jesus forgive you before repent and believe?

NO! He most certainly will not!

Romans 1: 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 2: 1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elohiym]

Umm, hello? Did you read the openning post? I guess not. :nono:

So all you can offer is two scriptures to support your contention that you were forgiven AFTER you repented, not before.

Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. Luke 17:3

That first verse deals with men, not God; and, the verses do not even imply what happens to someone that is not sorry because they aren't aware they have done wrong.

Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That verse would seem to add yet another condition to salvation, the way it has been used on this thread. Now we must repent, and forgive others, BEFORE we receive grace?

Why not interpret that verse through the parable that Jesus told, which demonstrates his words in action? Here is the parable from Matthew 18:

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

In order for you to be correct, the part of the parable where, "The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all" must equate to repentance. Otherwise, the king (God) would be forgiving him without repentance (v. 27).

I reject Matthew 18:26 equating to repentance, because it is a blatantly self-righteous statement--"I will pay thee all." Did you pay him all? I surely didn't pay a cent. The wicked servant in the story never repented--as evidenced by the treatment of his brother--even though he was already forgiven.

Peace

###

 

[Rimi]

Clete, there's got to be a way to good rep here Paul for writing this.

 

[Rimi]

So all you can offer is two scriptures to support your contention that you were forgiven AFTER you repented, not before.

Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. Luke 17:3

That first verse deals with men, not God; and, the verses do not even imply what happens to someone that is not sorry because they aren't aware they have done wrong.

Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That verse would seem to add yet another condition to salvation, the way it has been used on this thread. Now we must repent, and forgive others, BEFORE we receive grace?

Why not interpret that verse through the parable that Jesus told, which demonstrates his words in action? Here is the parable from Matthew 18:

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

In order for you to be correct, the part of the parable where, "The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all" must equate to repentance. Otherwise, the king (God) would be forgiving him without repentance (v. 27).

I reject Matthew 18:26 equating to repentance, because it is a blatantly self-righteous statement--"I will pay thee all." Did you pay him all? I surely didn't pay a cent. The wicked servant in the story never repented--as evidenced by the treatment of his brother--even though he was already forgiven.

Peace

###

This is a perfect example of how to repent/forgive. You are having to hang on one word "all".

 

[elohiym]

Clete,

Did you notice this part?

"...knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance."

Unless you are arguing that his goodness in NOT inclusive of his forgiveness, you are making my point for me. Thanks!

Gods forgiveness does lead you to repentance. First comes the forgiveness, then comes the repentance.

Peace

###

 

[Rimi]

Clete,

Did you notice this part?

"...knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance."

Unless you are arguing that his goodness in NOT inclusive of his forgiveness, you are making my point for me. Thanks!

Gods forgiveness does lead you to repentance. First comes the forgiveness, then comes the repentance.

Peace

###

Yes, God's goodness gave us a means. But that doesn't automatically mean we're forgiven. If that were so, EVERYbody would be forgiven. And we know this simply is not and will not be the case. See Rev 20.

 

[elohiym]

This is a perfect example of how to repent/forgive. You are having to hang on one word "all".

Good grief, Rimi! Have you been reading the thread? I'm not hanging on one word.

Are you seriously going to assert that the wicked servant was actually repentant, then forgiven, and then he lost his salvation???

Peace

###

 

[elohiym]

See Rev 20.

Specifically what?

 

[Rimi]

Elohiym, you're saying the wicked servant was forgiven in any case because of God's goodness. Aren't YOU reading this thread, particularly what you wrongly assert?