Forgiveness

[Rimi]

Right Rimi,

I'm going to try one last time to explain this and if you still choose to ignore what I say and instead misrepresent my position then that is your choice.

1. You are using too narrow a definition for the word forgive. I have explained a couple of times how the word means various different things.

2. I am NOT saying that our sins are remitted before we repented, rather I have gone to great pains to point out that they are not.

3. What I am saying is that God has chosen to overlook our offenses for a time, to not hold them against us for the moment. This was necessary in order for Him to be able to send Christ to the cross.

4. Christ's work on the cross is what enabled us to be able to have our sins remitted by repenting.

5. Christ's teaching on forgiveness IS that we are to choose to overlook offenses freely. It is not that we are to remit the offense, this is something that can only be done once the offender repents.

6. If the offender has repented and we remit his offense then we are very clearly NOT supposed to keep a record of the offense, to keep score and say "look, I know you are repenting of this, but you've already done that umpteen times...."

I am not, repeat not saying that Christ's work on the cross was useless. No, it was totally necessary in order for our sins to be removed from us. However what I AM saying is that God chose to overlook our offense for enough time for Christ to do the work.

One can only hope you keep your word. For the last time (hopefully) God did NOT overlook our offenses for long enough time for Christ to do the work or THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR HIS WORK ON THE CROSS.

:bang:

 

[Agape4Robin]

Isn't forgiveness given wether one deserves it or not? :think:

 

[Delmar]

Isn't forgiveness given wether one deserves it or not? :think:

Sort of but not really. Repentance does not make you worthy of forgiveness, but it is necessary.

 

[elohiym]

Well, let's see. The wicked servant repented . . . and yet didn't forgive as he was forgiven. So, perhaps he was just mouthing the words and not sorry at all but afraid only of the consequences.

Then he didn't really repent, even by your standards. Thus, God forgave without repentance first.

 

[Truppenzwei]

One can only hope you keep your word. For the last time (hopefully) God did NOT overlook our offenses for long enough time for Christ to do the work or THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR HIS WORK ON THE CROSS.

:bang:

Well Rimi, I can only pray that God softens your unforgiving heart and give thanks that God is more forgiving than you give Him credit for.

:bang:

 

[Rimi]

HisLight wrote:

AMEN!!!

Ain't that the truth. It would crush us completely, wouldn't it.

This person is part of my step-daughter. She has at various times done things that hurt my child with the intent of offending me. These things happened at a time that while they were not against me directly it was clearly done with that intent. My child was far too young to even understand the offenses in the beginning.

I cannot cut her out of my life, that is up to my husband. I draw boundaries for her and I let her choose what happens. She knows that when she crosses the line that there will be consequences with me, that is more than anyone else seems capable of.

Your last question is interesting... No I have not had to forgive her repeatedly. I let her know that she is responsible for her actions whether she accepts it or not. I let her know that the consequences of the actions are on her as well.

First let me say that I'm truly sad that you have to deal with such a person and that it hurts someone so young and impressionable. What a tightrope you're walking, and I wouldn't wish it even on Buttboi. Sad that you can't cut her out, but I understand that situation as well. She has made your life miserable and likely will continue to do so. There is nothing to be done about that, but to trust God. That, and stick to your guns as far as boundaries and even making them tighter if she tests you. You got the first part of Luke 17:3 right, you confronted. But she was not humble and walking before God so you're part is done. Just keep in mind: a day may come where she does repent, and THAT will be the true test of obedience to God. Can we forgive when confronted with repentence. Don't be so sure! It's natural to want to say, "Well, you should be sorry..." and, "You're saying this NOW!!! . . . " and other things instead of the simple gracious statement of a heartfelt, "I forgive you, really." It's a hard thing indeed. Just a heads up for you if you ever come to that.

Your comment about giving her over to God is exactly how I look at this situation. Only God can heal her wounds and until she repents and recognizes that she needs Him, the situation isn't likely to get better. I have quit expecting her to change and so I am not disappointed or offended when she doesn't.

And it is an awful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. But let me point out that you made my point: you have quit expecting her to change . . . . well, then what's the point of forgiving? Forgiveness is a clean slate right? Well, if someone isn't changing, there can be no clean slate.

I cannot recall ever unilaterally forgiving anyone before. I don't know how to explain to you how I know that God challenged me to do this.

What do you mean by unilaterally? You mean for every mean thing someone's done to you? I don't think it works that way, we're not God. But we can take it one apology at a time. That's tough enough. But what I have really struggled with is the part about 70x7 times. Does Christ mean that for the same sin? Like, say you're run over with a car and the guy begs you to forgive him. Fine, you accept and forgive. Then a week later, he runs you down again, and again begs you to forgive him. . . . do you keep forgiving for the same sin? Is there a point where discernment comes in and you say, "Gee I think this dude's trying to kill me and really isn't sorry because I lived and he got caught!" I have to deal with a situation like this, went on for 20 years (and to think some here think I'm rash!). Finally, I decided I would cut ties. Had to send a message: put up or shut up. Haven't heard from that person since 2000. Gee, if they were so sorry all those times, why was it such a repeat offense and why can't they own up to it being the cause of the rift? I need to struggle thru this.

 

[Rimi]

Isn't forgiveness given wether one deserves it or not? :think:

We're more discussing when it's appropriate to forgive, with or without repentence. Do we deserve God's forgiveness even if we repent? Probably not. But He gives it if and only if we repent.

 

[Rimi]

Then he didn't really repent, even by your standards. Thus, God forgave without repentance first.

I think I said "maybe".

 

[Rimi]

Well Rimi, I can only pray that God softens your unforgiving heart and give thanks that God is more forgiving than you give Him credit for.

:bang:

God IS more forgiving than either of us give Him credit for. Just that I give Him credit for being logical in His manner and you don't. According to you, God goes around forgiving willy nilly and no one has to lift a finger.

 

[Truppenzwei]

God IS more forgiving than either of us give Him credit for. Just that I give Him credit for being logical in His manner and you don't. According to you, God goes around forgiving willy nilly and no one has to lift a finger.

wrong that is not what I said at all.

:bang:

 

[HisLight]

HisLight wrote:

First let me say that I'm truly sad that you have to deal with such a person and that it hurts someone so young and impressionable. What a tightrope you're walking, and I wouldn't wish it even on Buttboi. Sad that you can't cut her out, but I understand that situation as well. She has made your life miserable and likely will continue to do so. There is nothing to be done about that, but to trust God. That, and stick to your guns as far as boundaries and even making them tighter if she tests you. You got the first part of Luke 17:3 right, you confronted. But she was not humble and walking before God so you're part is done. Just keep in mind: a day may come where she does repent, and THAT will be the true test of obedience to God. Can we forgive when confronted with repentence. Don't be so sure! It's natural to want to say, "Well, you should be sorry..." and, "You're saying this NOW!!! . . . " and other things instead of the simple gracious statement of a heartfelt, "I forgive you, really." It's a hard thing indeed. Just a heads up for you if you ever come to that.

And it is an awful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. But let me point out that you made my point: you have quit expecting her to change . . . . well, then what's the point of forgiving? Forgiveness is a clean slate right? Well, if someone isn't changing, there can be no clean slate.

What do you mean by unilaterally? You mean for every mean thing someone's done to you? I don't think it works that way, we're not God. But we can take it one apology at a time. That's tough enough. But what I have really struggled with is the part about 70x7 times. Does Christ mean that for the same sin? Like, say you're run over with a car and the guy begs you to forgive him. Fine, you accept and forgive. Then a week later, he runs you down again, and again begs you to forgive him. . . . do you keep forgiving for the same sin? Is there a point where discernment comes in and you say, "Gee I think this dude's trying to kill me and really isn't sorry because I lived and he got caught!" I have to deal with a situation like this, went on for 20 years (and to think some here think I'm rash!). Finally, I decided I would cut ties. Had to send a message: put up or shut up. Haven't heard from that person since 2000. Gee, if they were so sorry all those times, why was it such a repeat offense and why can't they own up to it being the cause of the rift? I need to struggle thru this.

Rimi,

Thank you for your kind words. Honestly, that is how I know this thing is from God. She has problems only God can solve. I am at peace with that. Her behavior is not my problem, I don't get angry or disappointed about it any more. While she behaves like a child she is an adult.

I appreciate your warning about being ready to forgive, because at the time this challenge came to me I was not ready. In fact, I doubted that it was even possible for me to ever be ready. It didn't happen over night, but God did change my heart toward her completely.

Forgiveness is about a clean slate. I don't hold prior offenses against her. I don't mention them, I don't think about them except in the context of these kinds of conversations.

I do take her tendency to be irresponsible into consideration when I set boundaries for her though. It isn't as if those actions are forgotten. I think that speaks to the situation you mentioned.

I don't have a problem with cutting people off when God leads. Sometimes it is necessary, as when Paul advised for someone to be given over to the devil so that they could come to repentance.

My point here is that I think both solutions to the forgiveness issue are within God's will. I think that unilateral forgiveness is a rare thing. I cannot recall any other time that God has challenged me to do that, but I am certain that He does.

 

[Agape4Robin]

We're more discussing when it's appropriate to forgive, with or without repentence. Do we deserve God's forgiveness even if we repent? Probably not. But He gives it if and only if we repent.

I'm intrigued by this discussion.....so let me ask.....

As born again believers.......are we forgiven even if we don't ask? What if it's a "minor" offense and it is forgotten by us? Do you think that it puts our salvation in jeopardy?

 

[Rimi]

HisLight wrote:

Thank you for your kind words. Honestly, that is how I know this thing is from God. She has problems only God can solve. I am at peace with that. Her behavior is not my problem, I don't get angry or disappointed about it any more. While she behaves like a child she is an adult.

Yikes! I don't for a minute think this is from God. God doesn't want us to have misery in our lives. This is something we can do all by ourselves. We don't need any help from Him. But, yeah, only God can help her.

I appreciate your warning about being ready to forgive, because at the time this challenge came to me I was not ready. In fact, I doubted that it was even possible for me to ever be ready. It didn't happen over night, but God did change my heart toward her completely.

Then she has a clean slate?

Forgiveness is about a clean slate. I don't hold prior offenses against her. I don't mention them, I don't think about them except in the context of these kinds of conversations.

If she's pulling the same crap (which appears to be using the child) then it appears that you have to repeat clean the slate. Guess I don't have enough info, and not trying to pry. Just going by what I'm getting here.

I do take her tendency to be irresponsible into consideration when I set boundaries for her though. It isn't as if those actions are forgotten. I think that speaks to the situation you mentioned.

Well, we've not been commanded to forget have we? But forgive if there's repentence.

I don't have a problem with cutting people off when God leads. Sometimes it is necessary, as when Paul advised for someone to be given over to the devil so that they could come to repentance.

Yep. It's tough. But let me tell you. . . so very freeing! RCers thrive on being "martyrs", and just living with pain and guilt. Why? This isn't what God wants unless you have a real reason for that!

My point here is that I think both solutions to the forgiveness issue are within God's will. I think that unilateral forgiveness is a rare thing. I cannot recall any other time that God has challenged me to do that, but I am certain that He does.

You say you've forgiven her and that must be the case. I take your word for it. But you're not doing her any favors. I'm not saying you have to confront each and every time (unless it's clear and present affect on child). Well, we agree to disagree. I was free when applying Luke 17:3, and you were challenged otherwise. Let God figure it out.

 

[temple2006]

Rimi.......What do you mean by unilaterally? You mean for every mean thing someone's done to you? I don't think it works that way, we're not God.

We are not God....Very true....But consider, we are his representatives and we are to reflect his divine nature. Erring is human, forgiving is divine. Do not think that my forgiving removes any consequences to the perp's actions but it does absolve me from being the dispenser of consequences and that is hugely liberating for me.

 

[Rimi]

Temple, yes forgiving is divine. . . with repentence it's really divine. That is God's nature to forgive with repentence. Does it all the time in the Bible and that's the only we way we get forgiven in Christ. We're not talking about dispensing consequences, but we are talking about forgiving as God does. Were you forgiven before you repented, assuming you're Christian?

 

[HisLight]

HisLight wrote:
Yikes! I don't for a minute think this is from God. God doesn't want us to have misery in our lives. This is something we can do all by ourselves. We don't need any help from Him. But, yeah, only God can help her.

Her behavior isn't from God.

My ability to forgive her and be at peace about my relationship with her such as it is, that is from God.

Yes, she has a clean slate with me as much as I am able to do that. That doesn't mean I don't manage our relationship or that I am not guarding her ability to hurt my child. It does mean that I don't spend time being angry about what she has done in the past.

 

[Rimi]

Her behavior isn't from God.

My ability to forgive her and be at peace about my relationship with her such as it is, that is from God.

Yes, she has a clean slate with me as much as I am able to do that. That doesn't mean I don't manage our relationship or that I am not guarding her ability to hurt my child. It does mean that I don't spend time being angry about what she has done in the past.

You had said something like this was something God wanted you to go thru. I was just pointing out that God probably would rather no one go thru anything like this. He doesn't sit there masterminding every thing that happens.

". . . as much as I am able to to that" .. . . Then you're not 100%.

 

[temple2006]

Rimi.......Please discuss what is the difference between divine and really divine. Can I safely say that you do not believe in unconditional love?

 

[Truppenzwei]

Temple, yes forgiving is divine. . . with repentence it's really divine. That is God's nature to forgive with repentence. Does it all the time in the Bible and that's the only we way we get forgiven in Christ. We're not talking about dispensing consequences, but we are talking about forgiving as God does. Were you forgiven before you repented, assuming you're Christian?

Depends how sadly narrow a view you take of what forgiveness means.

 

[Rimi]

Rimi.......Please discuss what is the difference between divine and really divine. Can I safely say that you do not believe in unconditional love?

Correct. If I am murdered, I don't love my murderer. Much like the saints in Rev 6 asking for revenge from God on those who killed them. Much like God in Lev 26:30.