Forced Vaccination is Wrong

[1PeaceMaker]

The key here is how long it takes to determine an outbreak of a specific disease has occurred. By the time an outbreak has been declared, it may be to late for you to self quarantine, your children have long since been exposed.

Actually, its not. My daughters get some pretty sever sprint time allergies characterized by runny noses, red, itchy, puffy eyes and a fever. We have taken them to the doctor so we know that it is allergies causing the fever, usually due to dehydration. There is no reason to keep them home for that fever or other symptoms. They want to go to school so we let them.

So in kids who don't vaccinate and (surprise) don't have allergies this wouldn't work? And seriously..... man..... if a kid is so sick they have a fever from dehydration and you send them to school you are multiplying their risks. Infections have been associated with dehydration because it puts a strain on the body systems. Why not use time-tested, doctor approved methods to reverse the fever induced dehydration and keep them that way while they are in school or else keep them home when they are at their worst?

Then you foolishly do not understand spread of disease. Each and every day and any place you go, your chances of being exposed to something is significant. It can range from a minor cold to a viral infection that ends up destroying your heart (this actually happened to my cousin). The only way. the only way, for you avoid that exposure is to to become completely self sufficient and never expose your family to the non-crunchy world.

Actually, it's not a big risk. There are days and weather conditions that are good for going out. I don't use the big cities or go into buildings that are reputed to spread disease unless I absolutely cannot avoid it.

You all are foolish if you think a non-vax person is a risk while you go around spreading uncleanness and harming each other all over the place.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Prison is a good place for parents who willfully allow their children to spread deadly diseases when there is an available and superior option (vaccinations).

Because it is in the best interest of ALL children ...

Wow and wow.

Recently a mom lost her baby to SUDS 5 days after the first vaxing at 6 months. She also has a two year old daughter and may have more children. No way is she vaccinating. You would imprison her and poison her kids rather than showing mercy. Sad.

Society will come apart at the seams if you make war against non-vaxing parents. :nono:

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Indeed. I have no problem whatsoever with those parents teaching their children from home.

But then you say this!

Prison is a good place for parents who willfully allow their children to spread deadly diseases when there is an available and superior option (vaccinations).

Inconsistent much?

 

[CabinetMaker]

So in kids who don't vaccinate and (surprise) don't have allergies this wouldn't work? And seriously..... man..... if a kid is so sick they have a fever from dehydration and you send them to school you are multiplying their risks. Infections have been associated with dehydration because it puts a strain on the body systems. Why not use time-tested, doctor approved methods to reverse the fever induced dehydration and keep them that way while they are in school or else keep them home when they are at their worst?

You may find this hard to believe, but my kids like school. We get them to drink some extra liquid and guess what, dehydration cured.

Why are working so hard to avoid dealing with the issue of identifying an outbreak?

Actually, it's not a big risk. There are days and weather conditions that are good for going out. I don't use the big cities or go into buildings that are reputed to spread disease unless I absolutely cannot avoid it.

I go to work every day. One the bus. I work in a large building with a closed HVAC system. I am probably at less risk than you. Care to guess why?

You all are foolish if you think a non-vax person is a risk while you go around spreading uncleanness and harming each other all over the place.

Given the incubation period for certain diseases, yes, you and your family to present an enhanced risk. For the sake of argument, say your family had been at Disneyland. Your kids got infected but you wont know that for 10 to 14 days. You take your infected kids onto an air plane and fly home thus exposing everybody on that plane to the disease and you have no way to know that you have done so. So yes, people who refuse vaccination for personal reasons do, in fact, represent a larger threat to the general population.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

You may find this hard to believe, but my kids like school. We get them to drink some extra liquid and guess what, dehydration cured.

Since it's so easy to cure, that's no reason they should be out of school. But if they are feverish with dehydration, school is the last place they should be until they get control again.

Why are working so hard to avoid dealing with the issue of identifying an outbreak?

I'm not avoiding it. The job of the CDC is to identify that, and if they do their job I get to avoid the outbreak.

I go to work every day. One the bus. I work in a large building with a closed HVAC system. I am probably at less risk than you. Care to guess why?

You aren't. Your flu shot was -15% last year. You would take sickness to work..

Given the incubation period for certain diseases, yes, you and your family to present an enhanced risk. For the sake of argument, say your family had been at Disneyland. Your kids got infected but you wont know that for 10 to 14 days. You take your infected kids onto an air plane and fly home thus exposing everybody on that plane to the disease and you have no way to know that you have done so. So yes, people who refuse vaccination for personal reasons do, in fact, represent a larger threat to the general population.

Don't take it anywhere if it's contagious. No need to infect others that way. But we don't go to filthy locations like that. That's what foreigners did.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Since it's so easy to cure, that's no reason they should be out of school. But if they are feverish with dehydration, school is the last place they should be until they get control again.

Just how high do you think their fever was? They never "lost control" of anything.

I'm not avoiding it. The job of the CDC is to identify that, and if they do their job I get to avoid the outbreak.

Do you have any idea how long it takes the CDC to determine that an outbreak of a specific disease has occurred? I'll give you a hint: its measured in weeks.

You aren't. Your flu shot was -15% last year. You would take sickness to work..

Or get it at work. Still, I am better protected than you because I have been exposed to more "stuff" so my immune system is fairly robust. My doctor says I should not waste my time and money on flu shots, they are of no benefit to me. When I do get the flu I fight it off fairly quickly. I get them anyway because there are so many family members that I see regularly that are extremely susceptible to the flu.

Don't take it anywhere if it's contagious. No need to infect others that way. But we don't go to filthy locations like that. That's what foreigners did.

I have never met anybody who can so completely miss a point as you. You took your healthy family to Disneyland. You were exposed while at Disneyland. You were already sick, albeit asymptomatic, when you got on the plane home. Disney was just an example drawn from current events. The same would hold true if you ever travel by plane anyplace. The point is that there is a significant period of time during which you are contagious to others without ever knowing that you have been exposed to something.

 

[fzappa13]

Wow and wow.

Arguing with fascists is a fruitless pursuit. They either get their way or they don't. Either way they loose. They just don't figure it out until they find themselves offering the Nuremburg Defense should they "win".

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Just how high do you think their fever was? They never "lost control" of anything.

Yes, they lost control of their hydration status, to the point of fever, a risk factor for infection and everything. That's not a "go to school day" unless it's corrected before heading to school. That's my parental opinion. If they love school they won't mess around if you don't.

TX basically agrees by putting in fever detecting cameras to prevent spreading disease.

Do you have any idea how long it takes the CDC to determine that an outbreak of a specific disease has occurred? I'll give you a hint: its measured in weeks.

But that was effective enough for Cali where only 50% of people sickened were confirmed to have less than 2 doses of MMR. We didn't see a snowballing effect. Nor did we with Ebola.

There would have been no outbreak if DL had screened it's participants for fevers in the first place, like a TX school.

Or get it at work. Still, I am better protected than you because I have been exposed to more "stuff" so my immune system is fairly robust.

You want an artificially manipulated immune system, calling it more robust, yet it's your kids who have such bad allergies they get fevers, not mine. Seems like your immune systems are more challenged.

I have never met anybody who can so completely miss a point as you. You took your healthy family to Disneyland. You were exposed while at Disneyland. You were already sick, albeit asymptomatic, when you got on the plane home.

The prodromal period includes fever. Don't expose others during fever. Get my point now?

Disney was just an example drawn from current events. The same would hold true if you ever travel by plane anyplace. The point is that there is a significant period of time during which you are contagious to others without ever knowing that you have been exposed to something.

Ebola. It's not overflowing our hospitals despite there being no artificial immunity.

 

[Tyrathca]

Recently a mom lost her baby to SUDS 5 days after the first vaxing at 6 months.

With the implication here being that the vaccine caused the SIDS, correct?

She also has a two year old daughter and may have more children. No way is she vaccinating.

AN understandable emotive psychological response, even if an illogical one.

You would imprison her and poison her kids rather than showing mercy. Sad.

"imprison" her? Who has suggested this?

"Poison" the kids? Nothing of the sort is happening.

Society will come apart at the seams if you make war against non-vaxing parents. :nono:

Another one of your classic exaggerations.

 

[Tyrathca]

TX basically agrees by putting in fever detecting cameras to prevent spreading disease.

There is poor evidence that such screening cameras are effective, not unexpected since many who are having fevers wont be having one at the time they get scanned. It is imperfect at best and at worst is a waste of resources for political reasons (it is a "low cost" way of looking like action is being taken)

But that was effective enough for Cali where only 50% of people sickened were confirmed to have less than 2 doses of MMR. We didn't see a snowballing effect. Nor did we with Ebola.

We didn't see a snowballing affect for many reasons, one of the major ones being the number of people were vaccinated and had the vaccine take hold.

Ebola never took off and was never expected too for reasons related to its method of transmission, speed of onset and its severity of symptoms. It is silly to compare it to most other diseases.

There would have been no outbreak if DL had screened it's participants for fevers in the first place, like a TX school.

False. It might have decreased the chances slightly, only if those detected were done so accurately with confidence and without exception refused entry AND the people infected had a fever at time of screening.

The prodromal period includes fever. Don't expose others during fever. Get my point now?

Does fever occur precede infectious periods in all patients all the time? No. Are all fevers noticed and correctly identified as fevers? No. You are over-generalising in the extreme.

Ebola. It's not overflowing our hospitals despite there being no artificial immunity.

Another habit of yours, generalising diseases into a one size fits all model.

Ebola isn't overflowing our hospitals and it was never expected to overflow our hospitals (claims to the contrary were media hyperbole). At worst it was feared there would be limited local transmission, mainly to the healthcare workers treating incoming travelers. One important thing about ebola is that in general there is only a quite short time during which you don't show symptoms after exposure and its method of transmission means that it is most effective when symptoms are sever (i.e. bleeding, vomiting, diarrhoea). Comparing it to other diseases is silly given its unusual characteristics and especially silly to compare against airborne respiratory illnesses.

 

[fzappa13]

media hyperbole

I guess whether or not you eat the stuff depends on the flavor, eh?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Yes, they lost control of their hydration status, to the point of fever, a risk factor for infection and everything. That's not a "go to school day" unless it's corrected before heading to school. That's my parental opinion. If they love school they won't mess around if you don't.

TX basically agrees by putting in fever detecting cameras to prevent spreading disease.

You are welcome to your opinion. Don't be shocked if I ignore your opinion.

As for fever detecting cameras, interesting idea. As long as it is not the sole determining factor.

But that was effective enough for Cali where only 50% of people sickened were confirmed to have less than 2 doses of MMR. We didn't see a snowballing effect. Nor did we with Ebola.

Did it ever cross your mind that the reason we didn't see a mojarra outbreak was because so many people were vaccinated? It should be something you consider if you are honestly concerned about public health.

There would have been no outbreak if DL had screened it's participants for fevers in the first place, like a TX school.

Not true. People may not display a fever during the time in which they are contagious.

You want an artificially manipulated immune system, calling it more robust, yet it's your kids who have such bad allergies they get fevers, not mine. Seems like your immune systems are more challenged.

It is no obvious that have zero understanding of the differences between diseases and allergies. Remember that your body does not know that a vaccine is "artificial disease". As far as your body knows, the MMR vaccine is the same as the real deal so it creates antibodies. In the future, when exposed to the real thing, your body has the antibodies and can immediately begin fighting the disease so most people never get sick. Allergies are entirely different and I would bet real money your family has them and that you do quarantine your family when you know its allergies.

The prodromal period includes fever. Don't expose others during fever. Get my point now?

It may or may not include a fever. Your point is, as usual, incorrect.

Ebola. It's not overflowing our hospitals despite there being no artificial immunity.

Africa knows of the Ebola virus and what it can do. They know to watch for. How many people died before an outbreak was determined to be in progress and quarantine measures were instigated? If you don't know the answer to this then you are to ignorant of the facts regarding infectious diseases to be trusted to act appropriately in the very first stages of a potential outbreak.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

You are welcome to your opinion. Don't be shocked if I ignore your opinion.

Don't be shocked if I take your ideas about risk less seriously.

As for fever detecting cameras, interesting idea. As long as it is not the sole determining factor.

Why would you want feverish kids in school? That's just wrong. I know the endocrine system is under pressure and it puts the immune system at increased risk. Home is the place for sick or weakened children. Of course to every rule one might find an exception, but it's certainly a decent default.

Did it ever cross your mind that the reason we didn't see a mojarra outbreak was because so many people were vaccinated? It should be something you consider if you are honestly concerned about public health.

Did anybody go start a measles party? Nope. So there's some credit you should share with vaccines. And vaccinated people can catch and spread measles asymptomatically. So the true outbreak size cannot be measured, but what we have measured is a small secondary outbreak followed by nothing more.

Not true. People may not display a fever during the time in which they are contagious.

And some are asymptomatic the whole way. But what is the percentage that have no prodromal fever? The outbreak would be limited because the majority will react with fever.

It is no[w] obvious that [you] have zero understanding of the differences between diseases and allergies.

No, you. Allergies are a sign of an imbalanced immune system.
"Allergies are diseases of the immune system that cause an overreaction to substances"

Remember that your body does not know that a vaccine is "artificial disease".

False.

As far as your body knows, the MMR vaccine is the same as the real deal so it creates antibodies.

Then why does the disease cause lifetime immunity while the MMR needs boosting?

In the future, when exposed to the real thing, your body has the antibodies and can immediately begin fighting the disease so most people never get sick.

You mean they are asymptomatic but could still get sequelae like an ear infection from the disease and not know it's true origins.

Lyme disease is dangerous because it allows secondary infections a chance to develop while the immune system is at war. It's not good to be dealing with artificial infections. There could be unforeseen consequences.

Allergies are entirely different and I would bet real money your family has them and that you do quarantine your family when you know its allergies.

We don't quarantine for allergies.

Africa knows of the Ebola virus and what it can do. They know to watch for.

And what is important here is that disease control works. It did work for the USA when we were alert to the new outbreak cases going on.

How many people died before an outbreak was determined to be in progress and quarantine measures were instigated?

It could have been an Ebola research related release (accidental or otherwise) where the outbreak started. I've been reading a book written by a biological weapons expert and historically speaking it's not a stretch at all.

If you don't know the answer to this then you are to ignorant of the facts regarding infectious diseases to be trusted to act appropriately in the very first stages of a potential outbreak.

Yet I'm not the city dweller who coughs on people when sick. We do keep fever at home.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

With the implication here being that the vaccine caused the SIDS, correct?

Considering that her baby got an awful giant red lump (Still there when put in the grave) and started screaming from that point forward, not letting them touch the leg or put him down. Yup. Also fever and a slumping body on one side. It included a double dose of tetanus, which is what made the giant lump. 13 vaccines in one day.

AN understandable emotive psychological response, even if an illogical one.

Do you think her family would be damaged and traumatized if they were forced to vaccinate again? Can society handle the backlash of anger it will generate to force the issue when compliance is already so high without force?

"imprison" her? Who has suggested this?

Your side of the debate...

1PeaceMaker View Post
Actually this is a global culture war and in some places children are snatched or parents put into prison.

Prison is a good place for parents who willfully allow their children to spread deadly diseases when there is an available and superior option (vaccinations).

"Poison" the kids? Nothing of the sort is happening.
Another one of your classic exaggerations.

That's the perspective of families with vaccine damaged loved ones.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

It is imperfect at best and at worst is a waste of resources for political reasons (it is a "low cost" way of looking like action is being taken)

Vaccination is imperfect at best. Volitional compliance is very high, though, high enough to warrant staying the course and not bothering non-vaxers who are not proving a threat to the beloved ideology and demography of disease spread.

We didn't see a snowballing affect for many reasons, one of the major ones being the number of people were vaccinated and had the vaccine take hold.

You mean - without force!? They got it done without enacting a draconian law!? They can back off the forcing, then.

Ebola never took off and was never expected too for reasons related to its method of transmission, speed of onset and its severity of symptoms. It is silly to compare it to most other diseases.

Sure. It's also silly to force tetanus because -- measles. You guys didn't corner the market on generalization, but you do heavily gravitate to your fav disease examples.

False. It might have decreased the chances slightly, only if those detected were done so accurately with confidence and without exception refused entry AND the people infected had a fever at time of screening.

That's not the only way. Awareness campaigns, incentivizing disease control (they don't want to waste a ticket, so don't go all cruise ship on them if they bow out over a fever or other illness.) Providing quick checkups/questions for entrants - like the TSA for colds.

Does fever occur precede infectious periods in all patients all the time? No. Are all fevers noticed and correctly identified as fevers? No. You are over-generalising in the extreme.

You try to make the exceptions sound like the rule.

Comparing it to other diseases is silly given its unusual characteristics and especially silly to compare against airborne respiratory illnesses.

It is airborne. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ansmission-of-ebola-is-likely-new-study-says/

 

[CabinetMaker]

Don't be shocked if I take your ideas about risk less seriously.

Why would you want feverish kids in school? That's just wrong. I know the endocrine system is under pressure and it puts the immune system at increased risk. Home is the place for sick or weakened children. Of course to every rule one might find an exception, but it's certainly a decent default.

Did anybody go start a measles party? Nope. So there's some credit you should share with vaccines. And vaccinated people can catch and spread measles asymptomatically. So the true outbreak size cannot be measured, but what we have measured is a small secondary outbreak followed by nothing more.



And some are asymptomatic the whole way. But what is the percentage that have no prodromal fever? The outbreak would be limited because the majority will react with fever.



No, you. Allergies are a sign of an imbalanced immune system.
"Allergies are diseases of the immune system that cause an overreaction to substances"



False.



Then why does the disease cause lifetime immunity while the MMR needs boosting?



You mean they are asymptomatic but could still get sequelae like an ear infection from the disease and not know it's true origins.

Lyme disease is dangerous because it allows secondary infections a chance to develop while the immune system is at war. It's not good to be dealing with artificial infections. There could be unforeseen consequences.

We don't quarantine for allergies.



And what is important here is that disease control works. It did work for the USA when we were alert to the new outbreak cases going on.



It could have been an Ebola research related release (accidental or otherwise) where the outbreak started. I've been reading a book written by a biological weapons expert and historically speaking it's not a stretch at all.



Yet I'm not the city dweller who coughs on people when sick. We do keep fever at home.

Responses like this are why you fail to convince anybody that doesn't already agree with you to agree with you. You provided flippant, non responsive answers and completely ignored requests for hard data to support your position. Your arguments are based on emotion, not reason.

 

[BOLCATS]

Responses like this are why you fail to convince anybody that doesn't already agree with you to agree with you. You provided flippant, non responsive answers and completely ignored requests for hard data to support your position. Your arguments are based on emotion, not reason.

I thought this 1Peacemakers response to cabinetmaker and I thought it was time someone said it until I realized I mixed the two posters up.

 

[Tyrathca]

Considering that her baby got an awful giant red lump (Still there when put in the grave) and started screaming from that point forward, not letting them touch the leg or put him down. Yup. Also fever and a slumping body on one side. It included a double dose of tetanus, which is what made the giant lump. 13 vaccines in one day.

Sooooo.... you were intentionally disingenuous when you said they died of SIDS because that is obviously not a case of SIDS. Furthermore your description of a fever of unknown origin (but suspected soft tissue) in a 6 month old who is apparently inconsolable and with possible neurological signs sounds like a child which would absolutely get medical intervention and investigation.

This strikes me as an extremely misleading example.

Vaccination is imperfect at best.

Which is why it isn't expected to work alone.

That's not the only way. Awareness campaigns, incentivizing disease control (they don't want to waste a ticket, so don't go all cruise ship on them if they bow out over a fever or other illness.) Providing quick checkups/questions for entrants - like the TSA for colds.

Which are all very good and can also help to slow the spread but do not remove the usefulness of immunisations.

You try to make the exceptions sound like the rule.

Those exceptions are extremely common.

It is airborne. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ansmission-of-ebola-is-likely-new-study-says/

No it is not, not in the the way generally meant and even that article says this. At most ebola can perhaps aerosolise (this was warned about in guidelines for healthcare workers.), the person in the article was suggesting that this occurs much more frequently and more easily than generally thought. Even then they described it as at most very rare still.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Sooooo.... you were intentionally disingenuous

SUDS, not SIDS. And no, I was honest. I just read that particular case.

when you said they died of SIDS because that is obviously not a case of SIDS.

It wasn't diagnosed as SIDS.

Furthermore your description of a fever of unknown origin (but suspected soft tissue) in a 6 month old who is apparently inconsolable and with possible neurological signs sounds like a child which would absolutely get medical intervention and investigation.

Absolutely. But not every mother has the training.

Here's what she says happened.

“He wouldn’t let me touch his leg. He screamed and cried constantly. I knew babies were fussy after vaccines, but this was excessive. His little vein in his head would bulge out when he cried. I didn’t know what to do. I had nothing telling me this was in any way unusual.

Within a few days he stopped making eye contact with us and he began to twitch and jerk. One side of his body began to slump slightly. If he was not being held, he would scream and cry constantly.

On April 10, 2012, my son appeared to be exceptionally well and he and my daughter played and watched TV while I cleaned the house. Around noon, my daughter laid down for a nap. Around 2 o’clock, my son began getting very sleepy. So he and I sat in our big chair and he fell asleep on my chest.

Two hours later, my husband came home from work and thought my son wasn’t moving. He woke me up saying the baby wasn’t breathing. All hell broke loose from that point on. Bently was pronounced dead at 5:35 pm. Five days after receiving his first and only round of vaccinations.”

Which is why it isn't expected to work alone.

And even not at all. (so many cases of that!)

Which are all very good and can also help to slow the spread but do not remove the usefulness of immunisations.

The point is, there alternatives. Just like there's an alternative to the cheapo restaurant ball-pit where MRSA and all manner of things lurk.

Those exceptions are extremely common.

That burden is on you to prove. Non-vaccers all over will end up getting the memo so spill the beans. It'll be a wide ranging favor.

No it is not, not in the the way generally meant and even that article says this. At most ebola can perhaps aerosolise (this was warned about in guidelines for healthcare workers.), the person in the article was suggesting that this occurs much more frequently and more easily than generally thought. Even then they described it as at most very rare still.

Ever read the book, Biohazard?

I understand that it may not be exactly the same, but the air is how they spread Ebola in weapons research. It's of course the more volatile strains, also, that they work with. So there's that...

It's a good book... it shows how air-born disease works under certain weather conditions and not others. Part of disease control needs to involve this understanding.

BIG QUESTION: If voluntary immunization has worked and continues to be effective, why move towards force?

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Responses like this are why you fail to convince anybody that doesn't already agree with you to agree with you. You provided flippant, non responsive answers and completely ignored requests for hard data to support your position. Your arguments are based on emotion, not reason.

My answers were based on my reasoning process. What you fail to see is that my answer is sufficient, because we are not debating the value of a risky, artificial bid for immunity.

We are debating the morality of forcing parents, who like me are convinced that vaccinations are errant, dangerous, ungodly, unnatural, undesirable, cruel, etc.

So consider that force is ineffective. Humanity has visited this issue for hundreds of years and the answer always comes up with voluntary medicine = more persuasive or even good while force = violent riots, social instability and culture wars.

Try answering my question to Ty:

BIG QUESTION: If voluntary immunization has worked and continues to be effective, why move towards force?