Forced Vaccination is Wrong

[elohiym]

Rusha,

I checked into your quack yellow journalist, Peter Lipson. He only rates 3 out of 5 stars on Healtgrades.com, which means his patient satisfaction rating was below the national average. The hospital he works for receives a lot of money from the pharmaceutical companies, so obviously he has conflicting interests.

You can believe that stupid, manipulating male quack with a record of dissatisfied patients, working for a hospital that receives money from vaccine manufacturers, who is neither a pediatrician nor an immunologist, or you could believe this intelligent female immunologist who presents the scientific evidence against vaccination ideology:

Dr Tetyana Obukhanych, Ph.D. - Natural Immunity and Vaccination

 

[1PeaceMaker]

I wonder if CM would let his daughters watch this immunologist with a PHD explain how things work. :think:

 

[CabinetMaker]

I wonder if CM would let his daughters watch this immunologist with a PHD explain how things work. :think:

She can watch what she wants, I will not stop her.

 

[CabinetMaker]

What is your daughter's reason why refusing tetanus shot can keep a kid out of school? But having a communicable sexual disease doesn't, even if you are required to be vaccinated for that sexual disease if you don't already have it.

We have already discussed tetanus in this thread and linked to the symptoms of tetanus. Required or not, I'm sorry you don't see the benefit of protecting children from tetanus.

Tetanus and HPV are required, despite being less communicable than other diseases kids carry in school.

We have done both because the benefits of doing so out weighed the risks.

Does she really? How would TOL know, based on what you've said? Can she speak for herself?

She can. She has no desire to be part of TOL. That's my vice.

Can she speak for herself? Just wondering.

Oh yes, she can.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

We have already discussed tetanus in this thread

That was unresponsive, actually, despite you using a few words. I asked why your daughter thought what they are doing by forcing tetanus and HPV was right, and if so, why.

You did not refute my points on tetanus on this thread or elsewhere. (if you think you did, which points?)

I and have already pointed out the verifiable fact that people with high tetanus titers can get ill and die of tetanus.

and linked to the symptoms of tetanus.

Tetanus is limited to 30 cases a year in the USA, is not contagious and the symptoms of a bad tetanus reaction are being reported far in excess of that.

According to the handout that the federal Centers for Disease Control requires pediatricians to provide parents, the complications from DPT shots are these: 1 in 100 DPT shots will provoke prolonged crying or high fever in an infant; 1 in 1,700 will cause a brief seizure or state of shock. Over the decades, several hundred million pertussis shots have been given around the world -- today, nearly 90 percent of American 2-year-olds have been immunized -- but there still is no agreement on the graver reactions to the vaccine. The literature has recorded hundreds of instances -- perhaps 1 in every 300,000 shots -- in which children died within a few days of a DPT shot, or suffered recurring seizures that brought on retardation or other chronic brain damage.

Basically, you can actually SEE the damage to varying degrees and levels of permanence in at least 1% of cases. But the brain being a delicate and complex thing, you won't be able to observe it all.

Required or not, I'm sorry you don't see the benefit of protecting children from tetanus.

What? "Requiring" isn't what you call it if you say "no shots, no school."

Get it?

We have done both because the benefits of doing so out weighed the risks.

That wasn't the discussion. The discussion was about the wrongness of denying the public education over it. (or even worse, as Cali is trying to force ALL children!)

You did it. Now your girls will be "one less" to avoid the risks of polysorbate 80 under the skin.

She can. She has no desire to be part of TOL. That's my vice.

That's fine. She doesn't need to be debating but listening and learning, anyway. (just my opinion based on what you said she said)

Oh yes, she can.

Can and will? Or can and won't?

 

[1PeaceMaker]

And CM, you know it is a violation of human rights to force the vaccine because MANY parents (including known immunologists) believe vaccines present grave danger to their children.

Not all vaccines are equal, but your support of them being "required" at a professional's discretion in order to be educated or continue a medical career already long ago bought at great price - well - it's blind, to say the least.

You treat the issue like you have no brain when it comes to picking which vaccines should be "required." You claim it's not a violation of the Geneva Code, despite the fact people are literally afraid for their health and very lives over it.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Online classrooms interact plenty without the risk of infectious diseases or travel. There are already public school online programs. The problem with them is 2 fold; that they still demand vaccines and that they don't require home education for all students who can't get a waiver*, which is hypocrisy in the land of vaccine-Nazis who don't really want to save children but make money.

*a waiver for staying at home, I mean. If they have to get waivers for vaccines, they should be required to show proof they can't be home-students if they are to travel to school and possibly spread diseases that can't be controlled with a needle.

Having taught at the college level, it is my experiance that interaction between student and teacher in a classroom is highly beneficial.

What, an epidemic of preventable death and disability isn't a public health issue we should deal with? Only if you can prevent it with a needle, huh?

Its still a non-sequitur fallacy on your part. The two are not analogous.

You are right. You lost the debate long ago. Over and over. But we can agree that the obvious fact is a strong decider on who lives or dies.

Declare victory an run away. That's okay. The facts of vaccination remain and they indicate that vaccines protect oeople from communicable disease far more than they cause harm. You have not presented one peer reviewed paper that contradicts that.

You mean no matter the risk, kids should get to travel to school if they choose to, since they have the right to travel freely.

Of, heavens no! They shook stay home where it's safe! Of course, they face no less rusk of injury when they go to the grocery store with mom so...

They also have another risk, the risk from vaccinations and the risk of infectious disease, even if vaccinated. They should have the right, and their parents, to make an informed non-coerced decision. They should not be discriminated against.

Since their informed, non-coerced decision has the potential to adversely effect the health of those that they interact with, no. Your rights end where my nose begins.

Considering that you easily criticize the OP and are here to debate, yes.

Intersting. I posted a link to the CDC with this and you ignored it.

You don't force gallbladder removal or vaccines in that law.

Yet another non-sequitur fallacy on your part.

In your world you aren't sacrificing the children who take vaccines and fall ill or die from it for all the other children that supposedly need them to get that shot. Got it.

All your fear mongering aside, no, the current system does not sacrifice children to anything.

You want to give the vaccines instead of waiting for them to get healthy first, even knowing weak people are more easily hurt by vaccines. Besides, if they continue starving now and then, the vaccines will fail during exposure in hard times. Bam - atypical measles.

I don't know that weak people are more easily hurt by vaccines. You have asserted it, attempted to establish a link using coincidental stories. Where is your peer reviewed research? That it is the standard of care you must meet.

Once my kid is reported to be exposed, that is days before they become contagious. The teacher/school official who knows and fails to report exposures to parents and other staff is the one who should be held liable for complications.

You realize that people are contagious while showing no symptoms, right? By the time you are notified, it's already to late.

Yet you have false confidence about the guy sniffling next to you if he's vaccinated. You remember that one?

Frankly, I don't get particularly worked up over people who have the sniffles in public. I am not that fearful of diseases. One of the benefits of being vaccinated.

I addressed it head on. I said if there were at-risk kids in my kids school, bla-bla-bla etc. Go read for the exact words.

Well, you got the bla-bla-bla part right.

My bodybuilder friend was explaining to me how unhealthy the sport was, actually. :think: Their BMI is obese as pro-competitors. Being high BMI with muscle taxes the body greatly.

Wasn't your original point that good nutrition prevents getting diseases? What about the runner or swimmer or tri-athlete who gets sick, what is wrong with their life?

Well blood saves lives and it comes from a needle, so there you go, mandate those blood drives. We don't have enough. Chronically. Public health and all. Forget Nuremburg and informed consent. Toss rule #1 right out the window. :bang:

And one more non-sequitur to round out your post.

What's that?

Everything in California causes cancer. Nasty place to live.

 

[CabinetMaker]

That was unresponsive, actually, despite you using a few words. I asked why your daughter thought what they are doing by forcing tetanus and HPV was right, and if so, why.

She knows why tetanus shots are good to have even though tetanus is communicable like measles. Sorry you don't. My daughter also watched her mother go through cancer treatments so she is for preventing cancer.

You did not refute my points on tetanus on this thread or elsewhere. (if you think you did, which points?)

As you made no salient points, the link to tetanus symptoms was fully sufficient to address your assertions.

I and have already pointed out the verifiable fact that people with high tetanus titers can get ill and die of tetanus.

Wow! I wish we had a shot we could give people to prevent them from getting tetanus.

Tetanus is limited to 30 cases a year in the USA, is not contagious and the symptoms of a bad tetanus reaction are being reported far in excess of that.

Hmmm. Let's think for a minute. I have the number of scrapes and cuts and pokes that me kids and their friends got. I can only imagine the total number of cuts, scrapes and pokes that happen every day and yet there are only 30 cases per year. Seems like a shot that prevents tetanus is actually working.

Basically, you can actually SEE the damage to varying degrees and levels of permanence in at least 1% of cases. But the brain being a delicate and complex thing, you won't be able to observe it all.

are you calling crying and a slight fever damage?

What? "Requiring" isn't what you call it if you say "no shots, no school."

That's right, no shots, no public school. If you do not wish to comply with the requirements for attending public school then it becomes your responsibility to educate your child.

That wasn't the discussion. The discussion was about the wrongness of denying the public education over it. (or even worse, as Cali is trying to force ALL children!)

Its not wrong.

That's fine. She doesn't need to be debating but listening and learning, anyway. (just my opinion based on what you said she said)

Can and will? Or can and won't?

Her choice. Probably won't because vaccination is a settled issue in her mind. She has far better things to do with her time at this point than watching propaganda videos.

 

[CabinetMaker]

And CM, you know it is a violation of human rights to force the vaccine because MANY parents (including known immunologists) believe vaccines present grave danger to their children.

Not all vaccines are equal, but your support of them being "required" at a professional's discretion in order to be educated or continue a medical career already long ago bought at great price - well - it's blind, to say the least.

You treat the issue like you have no brain when it comes to picking which vaccines should be "required." You claim it's not a violation of the Geneva Code, despite the fact people are literally afraid for their health and very lives over it.

First world problem, vaccines are scary. Third world problem, people are killed and maimed from diseases we routinely vaccinate against.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

First world problem, vaccines are scary. Third world problem, people are killed and maimed from diseases we routinely vaccinate against.

Wrong. The third world is terrified of vaccines, too.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

She knows why tetanus shots are good to have...

Totally irrelevant as to why schools or anyone else should force it.

As you made no salient points, the link to tetanus symptoms was fully sufficient to address your assertions.

The salient point is that parents have seen bad reactions, and whether or not they get a doctor's note, it's their right to refuse a risky medical prophylaxis.

Wow! I wish we had a shot we could give people to prevent them from getting tetanus.

The titers were from the vaccines (plus boosters). :doh:

I'll have to address the rest of the stupid later.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Wrong. The third world is terrified of vaccines, too.

yep, they are literally dying to avoid it.

Totally irrelevant as to why schools or anyone else should force it.

Only in your world.

The salient point is that parents have seen bad reactions, and whether or not they get a doctor's note, it's their right to refuse a risky medical prophylaxis.

Our fathers and grand fathers lived in a world where they didn't have vaccines. Instead of being able to look into the risks of a vaccine and a skid virus, they attended a lot more children's funerals. Thisbe who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I'll have to address the rest of the stupid later.

Can't wait.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Yes, my daughter understands that. My daughter also understand why certain diseases that can be communicated don't represent at threat and don't require vaccinations or isolation.

HIV and HPV are both communicable. HIV is more communicable and is considered more serious. So are other communicable diseases that don't cause the schools to shun them.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

yep, they are literally dying to avoid it.

Dying, fleeing, killing and being imprisoned to avoid it.

Only in your world.

You are pretty much contradicting yourself from earlier in the thread. Suddenly non-epidemics that don't threaten public health can keep a kid out of school.

Thisbe who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Seriously, says the dude who knows nothing of the secret vaccine sterilization campaigns the Catholic church fights to this day?

Can't wait.

While you wait, why don't you explain why people who have been vaccinated against tetanus repeatedly and have very high titers can still get sick and die of tetanus?

 

[fzappa13]

The pillow on which Cab rests his head ...


http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleID=2109855

 

[CabinetMaker]

Dying, fleeing, killing and being imprisoned to avoid it.

Cite please.

You are pretty much contradicting yourself from earlier in the thread. Suddenly non-epidemics that don't threaten public health can keep a kid out of school.

Because orbits ting children against lockjaw is prudent. For the child.

Seriously, says the dude who knows nothing of the secret vaccine sterilization campaigns the Catholic church fights to this day?

Well, since the thread was opened based on routine childhood immunizations, I figured wed stat there instead of jumping into the realm of conspiracies and tragic history.

While you wait, why don't you explain why people who have been vaccinated against tetanus repeatedly and have very high titers can still get sick and die of tetanus?

Because you don't care. You know what you know and no amount of research or reasoned explanation will change your mind.

 

[fzappa13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1PeaceMaker View Post
Dying, fleeing, killing and being imprisoned to avoid it.
Cite please.

You've been given multiple cites. You've ignored them all. Why would anyone continue? In the previous link ... that would be 75 cites. Enough for ya? ... likely not. If you're not Barbie you're his twin. In the words of Paul Simon, "still a man hears what he wants to hear and he disregards the rest."

 

[1PeaceMaker]

You've been given multiple cites. You've ignored them all. Why would anyone continue? In the previous link ... that would be 75 cites. Enough for ya? ... likely not. If you're not Barbie you're his twin. In the words of Paul Simon, "still a man hears what he wants to hear and he disregards the rest."

That's how I feel, sometimes. It's almost like a game, to see if I can make a sensible point to a devoted washed vaccine believer and actually get a reasonable response.

Granted, I have to spar with a man who's seen the checks from the pharmacy a great many years, now. (Assuming his wife's been working there as long as I've come to think.) I'd have to pick the daughter of a vaccine maker to have a more entrenched debate partner.

(like that rabid woman on facebook was, blaming the unvaccinated for the measles a (fully vaxed, oops) man brought to the doctor's office where she went to weigh her baby, poor thing.) Don't know why she set her daddy as "friend" considering she's rich from being scared of measles. Her full-blood sis didn't do that, but she wasn't the one making a fuss in the media.

I also feel like I have to argue this one until I'm blue in the face on the faintest chance that I can save a life, or make things better, at least for someone who might stumble into this thread, find all the arguments they need and all the relevant information, too.

:bang:

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Cite please.

Pakistani authorities have conducted their first-ever mass arrest of parents for refusing to allow their children to be vaccinated against polio.

Authorities in Peshawar, in the north-west of the country, detained 471 people and charged them with "endangering public security".

The local government says they will only be freed once they have pledged in writing to vaccinate their children.

The Taliban prohibit vaccinations and have attacked health workers.

The Pakistani government has declared "war" on the disease. "We have decided to deal with the refusal cases with iron hands. Anyone who refuses will be sent to jail," said Riaz Khan Mehsud, deputy commissioner of Peshawar.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31703835

nine people responsible for administering the government's polio vaccination campaign were shot dead in different cities of Pakistan.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/03/pakistan-war-polio-workers

Do you believe me now?

It's happening in Africa, heck all over the world and even the Catholic Church is in an uproar over what vaccinations are doing to the girls, destroying their future Catholics.

Because orbits ting children against lockjaw is prudent. For the child.

As though 30 cases a year warrants endangering children in their education and careers when we have other ways of dealing with it and the vaccine does not protect you like you imagine! How can you explain how high titers in a fully boosted person allows them to get lockjaw? It HAS happened, repeatedly!

Well, since the thread was opened based on routine childhood immunizations, I figured wed stat there instead of jumping into the realm of conspiracies and tragic history.

This whole thread was started on the basis of the crime against humanity, the breaking of the Nuremburg Code over forcing vaccines on attendees to school/daycare/established medical careers in the last few years.

Because you don't care.

You mean it doesn't matter to you because it will never make you feel that it's wrong to force a RISKY non-contagion vaccine on little children. (Most of whom live in the cities, btw, they don't work with or inhale horse manure or farm dirt like you! Most children are more exposed to hand sanitizer than dirt.)

You know what you know and no amount of research or reasoned explanation will change your mind.

And that's why I'm doing all this research. But you are right, you will never convince me forcing kids to get a vaccine to be home or public-schooled is wrong, even if the vaccines that you trust in did actually work as advertised.

Because you agree, there will always be risks and those risks are nobody else's but the individuals themselves, with informed consent, to take.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

The pillow on which Cab rests his head ...


http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleID=2109855

Big medicine has been paying his bills for a long time, too. Checks from that pharmacy job just kept rolling in until his whole family became cemented believers.

Bill and Melinda Gates are just big money-bag angels with needles. :angel:

Consent forms to administer the HPV vaccine were ‘illegally’ signed by wardens form youth hostels, showing that the Gates’ prey on the indigent without parents.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/bill-g...testing-tribal-children-with-vaccines/5407864

Out of a 16,000 strong group of girls they tested many fell ill and 5 died, making it one of the highest vaccine associated death rates I've heard of. I SERIOUSLY doubt 5 would have naturally died of cervical cancer.