For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

[chickenman]

Let me go back through and be sure I've not missed anything. If you've asked a question that doesn't get addressed before too long, please re-post it. I don't want to unintentionally neglect any sincere questions.

Thanks,
Randy

 

[Sheila B]

Hi, Sheila.
First I'd like to ask if you've made it all the way the thread, yet? If not, this question is *sort of* already addressed.

Fair enough; not yet. I will be days yet getting through because I am making notes and adding tidbits. This is a very interesting discussion and I intend to learn a lot. I will hold off till I catch up.

 

[Sheila B]

I'll add to his points with a question. Do you agree that in prophecy and in the law, Gentiles could:

• become circumcised, proselytes, and subsequently full participants in the nation of Israel
• remain uncircumcised but still be blessed if they blessed Israel and worshipped God
• remain uncircumcised and be judged as wicked enemies of Israel

?

OK I am caught up. Many questions, but will dive in here, as good as any place till I can formulate better what I'd like to know.

To the above questions, my input is that yes to all of the above.
In addition, according to the Jews the Gentiles are required to follow the Noahide Laws that God covenanted with Noah. There are seven:
Do not:
kill
steal
worship idols
sexual immorality
eat a live animal
curse God
Do:
set up courts of justice

Maybe this is the Law written on the heart of man that Paul mentions? Romans 1:19 Romans 2:14,15

Also the nations were being sanctified by the Jews in the Feast of Booths. Numbers 29:12-40 (15 Tishri is Succoth)

The feast called for sacrifices starting with 13 bulls, a decreasing number for the seven days of the Feast, 12 the next day, 11 the next and so on for a total of 70 bulls. These 70 bulls were understood to be for the 70 nations of Noah's sons who peopled the world after the flood.

It is my thinking that through this practice, God was preparing Israel to lead the world in the Coming Kingdom; that their purpose would be world-wide, not just to remain separate always.

This Feast was also called a Feast of Ingathering. Beginning as an agricultural Feast, the deeper meaning became understood as time went by according to the prophets to the Ingathering of the nations.
This is a Kingdom Feast for it is the one that will remain in the coming Kingdom. Zechariah 14:16,18,19

 

[Sheila B]

According to I Peter, the Spirit of Christ was in the Old Testament prophets.
I Peter 1:10 The Prophets prophesied of the grace that was to be ours... they searched and inquired about this salvation.
I Peter 1:11 They inquired what person or time was indicated by the Spirit of Christ within them.
I Peter 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you... that is we who have received this good news of salvation by grace.

How then, could the Feast of Booths be an Ingathering of the Nations when it is spoken of as being after the Second Coming?
Zechariah 14:6,7 Zechariah 14:16

In the OT does the nations always mean non-Jews? There must be another meaning here. Could there be a dual meaning to the end times aspect to Zechariah 14?

 

[amosman]

John has addressed your initial questions. Agree or disagree, did he adequately address your points so far?

Can you answer this question?Don't these verses say Jesus preached to those that were afar off (i.e. Gentiles ) ?
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

I'll add to his points with a question. Do you agree that in prophecy and in the law, Gentiles could:

• become circumcised, proselytes, and subsequently full participants in the nation of Israel
• remain uncircumcised but still be blessed if they blessed Israel and worshipped God
• remain uncircumcised and be judged as wicked enemies of Israel

?

1. Yes in the flesh. But Deut 30 speaks of circumcision of the heart.
2. If they receive the circumcision of the heart.
3. Both circumcised and uncircumcised can be the enemies of Israel. It was the circumcision that delivered up Jesus to the Romans.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Interesting point. But the metaphor was designed to show status. Israel was to be the special nation, above all nations. In the Body of Christ, Jesus Himself is the head, above all "body parts". Within that body, though, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

I was being a little facetious. Really I think the text only says that Israel would be the head and not the tail, it doesn't say anything about the Gentiles being the tail.

Here is one question that slipped by.
What did Paul mean when he said that not all Israel is Israel?

 

[john w]

Can you answer this question?Don't these verses say Jesus preached to those that were afar off (i.e. Gentiles ) ?
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.



1. Yes in the flesh. But Deut 30 speaks of circumcision of the heart.
2. If they receive the circumcision of the heart.
3. Both circumcised and uncircumcised can be the enemies of Israel. It was the circumcision that delivered up Jesus to the Romans.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Here is one question that slipped by.
What did Paul mean when he said that not all Israel is Israel?

_
"It was the circumcision that delivered up Jesus to the Romans.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. "-amosman

No, "gentile Christians" are not Jews, or "spiritual Israel, if that is the argument/assertion. Romans 2:28,29 is cited time and again as the the alleged evidence.

In these verses, Paul is not addressing Gentiles:

"Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, .." Romans 2:17

Remember, "early" Romans is Paul's lawyerly exposition on the judgment/condemnation of the heathen, the judgment/condemnation of "moral" person, and the judgment/condemnation of the "religious" person, i.e., the Jew, -that is the context in formulating the "logic" and defense", "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ...", of the gospel of Christ-Rom. 1:16. And hence, his conclusion:

-everyone is "guilty" as charged-the heathen, the religious person, the moral person-no exceptions/Romans 3:19
-everyone "comes short"-the heathen, the religious person, the moral person-no exceptions/Romans 3:23

Paul is addressing the Jews of that generation who thought that just being related to Abraham entitled them to justification. The Lord Jesus Christ faced this same mindset while He walked the earth, the Jews challenging Him, by asserting:

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39

Swiftly, with authority, w/o "batting an eye", the greatest preacher ever, stated:

"Ye are of your father the devil, ..." John 8:44

Paul re-iterated this trans-dispensational doctrine here in Romans 2, reminding them that even under the LORD God's dealings with Israel as a favored nation as pertaining to ministry, witnessing....(service/sanctification), national heritage/lineage was not enough. The individual Israelite(Jew) still was required to exhibit faith(albeit a different content), resulting in "circumcision of the heart"(circumcision being a "severing").

 

[amosman]

_
"It was the circumcision that delivered up Jesus to the Romans.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. "-amosman

No, "gentile Christians" are not Jews, or "spiritual Israel, if that is the argument/assertion. Romans 2:28,29 is cited time and again as the the alleged evidence.

In these verses, Paul is not addressing Gentiles:

"Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, .." Romans 2:17

Remember, "early" Romans is Paul's lawyerly exposition on the judgment/condemnation of the heathen, the judgment/condemnation of "moral" person, and the judgment/condemnation of the "religious" person, i.e., the Jew, -that is the context in formulating the "logic" and defense", "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ...", of the gospel of Christ-Rom. 1:16. And hence, his conclusion:

-everyone is "guilty" as charged-the heathen, the religious person, the moral person-no exceptions/Romans 3:19
-everyone "comes short"-the heathen, the religious person, the moral person-no exceptions/Romans 3:23

Paul is addressing the Jews of that generation who thought that just being related to Abraham entitled them to justification. The Lord Jesus Christ faced this same mindset while He walked the earth, the Jews challenging Him, by asserting:

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39

Swiftly, with authority, w/o "batting an eye", the greatest preacher ever, stated:

"Ye are of your father the devil, ..." John 8:44

Paul re-iterated this trans-dispensational doctrine here in Romans 2, reminding them that even under the LORD God's dealings with Israel as a favored nation as pertaining to ministry, witnessing....(service/sanctification), national heritage/lineage was not enough. The individual Israelite(Jew) still was required to exhibit faith(albeit a different content), resulting in "circumcision of the heart"(circumcision being a "severing").

In these verses, Paul is not addressing Gentiles:

"Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, .." Romans 2:17

Well actually Paul is talking about both.

These verses are about the so called Jew.


Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Now these verses are about the (non-Jew)

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision(non-Jew) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee(The Jew), who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly;(circumcision or uncircumcision) and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

 

[amosman]

Paul re-iterated this trans-dispensational doctrine here in Romans 2, reminding them that even under the LORD God's dealings with Israel as a favored nation as pertaining to ministry, witnessing....(service/sanctification), national heritage/lineage was not enough. The individual Israelite(Jew) still was required to exhibit faith(albeit a different content), resulting in "circumcision of the heart"(circumcision being a "severing").

Not trans-dispen only. Keeping the law has never been enough. Circumcision of the heart was not new.

 

[john w]

Well actually Paul is talking about both.

These verses are about the so called Jew.


Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Now these verses are about the (non-Jew)

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision(non-Jew) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee(The Jew), who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly;(circumcision or uncircumcision) and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

_
No, again:

Remember, "early" Romans is Paul's lawyerly exposition on the judgment/condemnation of the heathen, the judgment/condemnation of the "moral" person, and the judgment/condemnation of the "religious" person, i.e., the Jew, -that is the context in formulating the "logic" and defense", "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ...", of the gospel of Christ-Rom. 1:16. And hence, his conclusion:

-everyone is "guilty" as charged-the heathen, the religious person, the moral person-no exceptions/Romans 3:19
-everyone "comes short"-the heathen(non-Jew), the religious person(the Jew), the moral person-no exceptions/Romans 3:23

 

[amosman]

_
No, again:

Remember, "early" Romans is Paul's lawyerly exposition on the judgment/condemnation of the heathen, the judgment/condemnation of the "moral" person, and the judgment/condemnation of the "religious" person, i.e., the Jew, -that is the context in formulating the "logic" and defense", "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ...", of the gospel of Christ-Rom. 1:16. And hence, his conclusion:

-everyone is "guilty" as charged-the heathen, the religious person, the moral person-no exceptions/Romans 3:19
-everyone "comes short"-the heathen(non-Jew), the religious person(the Jew), the moral person-no exceptions/Romans 3:23

Sorry John but I have a hard time understanding your way of writing. You seem very smart and I'm sure you are, but we speak different languages. I do agree with most of what I do get, like "everyone is guilty". What do you think about the circumcision of the heart and how Jews and Gentiles fit into that category together, and when that spiritual circumcision began ? Also can you explain what you think it means for a Jew to become a non-Jew and if he can be a non-Jew than what is he ?

 

[Sheila B]

(since Paul wasn't saved under the kingdom program).

RA

Abraham with a barren wife, was told he would have not only a son (at age 75) but a whole multitude; and to have a son was the great desire of his heart, the first time God approached him.

Paul is not offered anything but told he will have suffering...for the sake of Jesus' Name the first time God speaks. Acts 9:15,16 Being a chosen vessel is connected with suffering for The Name.

Methinks that would be a salvation under the Kingdom moment according to MAD, no?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Abraham with a barren wife, was told he would have not only a son (at age 75) but a whole multitude; and to have a son was the great desire of his heart, the first time God approached him.

Paul is not offered anything but told he will have suffering...for the sake of Jesus' Name the first time God speaks. Acts 9:15,16 Being a chosen vessel is connected with suffering for The Name.

Methinks that would be a salvation under the Kingdom moment according to MAD, no?

Check out Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV) very carefully.
Was Paul due a blessing or a curse in Acts 9?

 

[Sheila B]

I Cor. 15:1-4 states the gospel by which one is saved, and belief is what is mentioned...not repentance. Now, that doesn't necessarily PRECLUDE repentance.

Do you believe that Matt-John represent a time period when Israel is under the Old Covenant? And do you believe that Jesus' teachings in those accounts were specifically for Israel under the Old Covenant, awaiting the coming kingdom?


Randy

Some thoughts concerning MAD:
The Cross is more for the Kingdom program then, being an OT Covenental activity, as Jesus came to fulfill the Law and not to abolish the Law? Also, repentance requires a turning away from sin and that is a Kingdom activity, right?

Under MAD, the Cross is not really a salvific remedy for the non-repentant, since no turning away from sin preceds salvation, but more of a Kingdom reality that is merely acknowledged by the Body as true?

Under MAD Jesus came for sinners not the righteous, and that would be the Kingdom saints who have to repent and await salvation for a later time. Is that so?

 

[Sheila B]

Check out Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV) very carefully.
Was Paul due a blessing or a curse in Acts 9?

That's my point. Because a blessing or a curse is being spoken of at all, that would be under the Kingdom realm? For the Body has no wrath for them?

It seems Paul is receiving wrath. Suffering for The Name.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

That's my point. Because a blessing or a curse is being spoken of at all, that would be under the Kingdom realm? For the Body has no wrath for them?

It seems Paul is receiving wrath. Suffering for The Name.

Suffering for Christ isn't the wrath of God.

God said, "I will curse him that curseth thee". Paul cursed
the seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ.

Why wasn't he cursed?

 

[Sheila B]

Abraham was an exception. For him to believe God's promise required no action.

Would we even know who he is if he had stayed in Ur?

 

[Sheila B]

I just want to put forth a simple answer to this question, for those who may still have trouble understanding the answers already given: Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness before there were any commands he had to follow.

We can see that after he was given his first command, circumcision, that God demanded this of him in the story of his son, when God sought to kill Abraham for not circumcising the child.

Abraham was breaking the covenant in that, and it would have come to an end if things hadn't changed, and God had killed Abraham.

Gen 22:15,16 ...because you have done this...

Again, Abraham left all he knew to leave Ur after the first Voice.
This second Voice comes after the binding of Isaac.

Had Abraham not bound Isaac, would the Voice have confirmed the Covenant?

 

[Sheila B]

Suffering for Christ isn't the wrath of God.

God said, "I will curse him that curseth thee". Paul cursed
the seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ.

Why wasn't he cursed?

II Cor 11:23,24,25,26,27,28,33

It fits right in with Peter's prediction for the Kingdom program-
I Peter 5:9,10

...after you have suffered awhile, God...will restore, establish, strengthen you.

 

[Sheila B]

Another reason it seems Paul was saved under the Kingdom program is that after the Voice, he fasts for 3 days and nights from food and water. Jesus said after the bridegroom leaves then they will fast; a Kingdom activity.

Ananias comes and lays hands on Paul and he sees, is bapized and recieves the HS. This apostle or elder of Damascus brings Paul into the Faith the Kingdom program way. Acts 9:17,18

Acts 9:19,20


He heads straight for the Apostles. Acts 9:26

And Barnabas rescuses him by taking Paul under his wing, to convince the apostles he is a Believer. Acts 9:27

Barnabas gets the credit for taking care of Paul so far. Acts 9:28

 

[chickenman]

Sorry for being away for a bit, Sheila.

Thanks for your participation.

According to I Peter, the Spirit of Christ was in the Old Testament prophets.

I Peter 1:10 The Prophets prophesied of the grace that was to be ours... they searched and inquired about this salvation.

You used the word "ours". Yet, Peter was writing to the Dispersion. His epistles were written to the Dispersion of Israelites in order to prepare them for their coming fiery trials (in "Jacob's Trouble") and for the return of the Lord. I'll be happy to elaborate on this if you like.

With that being said, when Peter referred to "the grace that would come to you", he's not referring to the salvation of the Body of Christ. Israel was promised a New Covenant in the promised kingdom, in which their sins would be blotted out forever (Jer. 31:34, eg) and eternal righteousness would be brought in (Dan. 9:24, eg). These were promises to Israel. So Peter, commissioned with the "gospel for the circumcision" (Gal. 2:7-8), writes to his dispersed countrymen with a message consistent with prophecy pertaining specifically to them.

The idea of receiving that grace AFTER the second coming of the Lord, when He brings in the kingdom, is confirmed a few verses later:

Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ I Peter 1:13
​

We can take application from many things in Peter's writings/teachings. But we can't make them to be doctrine for the Body. Again, I'll be happy to elaborate more on Peter's et al writings if needed.

I Peter 1:11 They inquired what person or time was indicated by the Spirit of Christ within them.

I Peter 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you... that is we who have received this good news of salvation by grace.

Same as above.

How then, could the Feast of Booths be an Ingathering of the Nations when it is spoken of as being after the Second Coming?

Zechariah 14:6,7 Zechariah 14:16

I'm not totally sure I understand the questions. But the nations will either be judged as wicked/cursed or as blessed when the Lord returns (Matt. 25). The cursed ones will be cast away, while the blessed ones will come unto Jerusalem (per Zech. 14) to worship the Lord and to keep the feast. Salvation would be available to the Gentile nations through Israel - the kingdom of priests - after the second coming (Zech. 8:23, e.g.), during the kingdom reign of Christ.