Good stuff, STP. And good food for thought.
Thanks!
Randy
Thanks!
Randy
For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained
- Thread starter chickenman
- Start date
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Yes, the LORD is so wise!
Here we have a Gentile accepted (who feared God and worked righteousness), he received the Spirit, and he did not have to be circumcised.
So, when the Acts 15 meeting, who's main concern was about whether or not Paul's Gentiles had to be circumcised, comes, Peter recalls his evening with Corny and comes to Paul's defense.
Corny is the only recorded Gentile preached to by the Twelve during Acts, I have to believe that it was to open the door for a certain type of Gentile for Paul, and to show that the Gentile did not have to be circumcised...opening the door for the gospel of uncircumcision.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I think the pattern also has something to do with the fact that Saul of Tarsus was an enemy of the LORD. He was the first blasphemer and enemy of the LORD saved.
Jesus had said that he would lay down his life for his friends, but Saul was no friend. The forgiveness found in the gospel of Christ would even cover blasphemy of the Spirit (Saul), which forgiveness could not be found in the kingdom program.
I agree. Imagine the Acts 15 Jerusalem council - how it would have gone - if God had not sent Peter to Corny back in Acts 10. God is infinitely wise. I bet it dawned on Peter, in the midst of the debate at the Jerusalem council, the reason why he was sent to Cornelius. And as soon as the light bulb lit up, that's when he intervened and spoke up in Paul's defense.
Yeah, I'm with you. Jesus said that anything could be said against the Son of Man and it could be forgiven him. But any blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven (Matt. 12). So that means that during Jesus earthly ministry, there was nothing that couldn't be forgiven. Even those who contributed to His murder were offered the chance to repent during Peter's Acts 2 and 3 sermons. So that means the blaspemy against the Spirit was something that could only be committed after the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost. Which means it must have been the rejection of miracles, performed by apostles and disciples, which could only have been performed by the power of the Spirit. Since Saul watched and consented to the stoning of Stephen, a man who performed those signs and wonders, then Saul committed the blasphemy of the Spirit. He was doomed under the kingdom program. God had to save him according to a new set of rules, so to speak.
I get too long-winded. I should have stopped at: "Yeah, I'm with you." :chuckle:
Hi cm:
In Acts 11:15 Peter said “the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning”, when referencing his visit to Corny’s house.
This had to be a reference to Pentecost. So, if the Holy Spirit “fell” on those in Corny’s house the same way it “fell” on those Jews at Pentecost, then wouldn’t that mean Corny was a “Kingdom” believer in lieu of a “Body” believer?
However, your points for Corny having to be in the BOC make sense, yet Acts 11:15 poses a problem for your points.
So, was God "ahead of schedule" (the MAD explanation), or are the A2D’s correct with their following proof text?
(1 Cor 12:13) “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks,…….”
Thanks
Much to ponder
Much to ponder
Of course there is "One Spirit" and "One Body" but, each group would still have it's own unique identity, it's own manners and ways of interacting. I have thought that Paul was reminding the faithful that, while we have ethnic and sociologic differences, etc. we are one in Christ. Let us not be divided. Paul knew, sadly,that his message would be received by the gentiles more readily than by his own people. He repeatedly called for unity as the ideal, yet he spread the Good News whereever he was called. Essentially, he had to accept that his people were The Body of Christ. This has been so exciting for me to ponder and grow in understanding. This is a great thread! peace, bybee:cheers:
Much to ponder
Of course there is "One Spirit" and "One Body" but, each group would still have it's own unique identity, it's own manners and ways of interacting. I have thought that Paul was reminding the faithful that, while we have ethnic and sociologic differences, etc. we are one in Christ. Let us not be divided. Paul knew, sadly,that his message would be received by the gentiles more readily than by his own people. He repeatedly called for unity as the ideal, yet he spread the Good News whereever he was called. Essentially, he had to accept that his people were The Body of Christ. This has been so exciting for me to ponder and grow in understanding. This is a great thread! peace, bybee:cheers:
Hey, brother. :wave2: Haven't seen you in a while. Good to see you.
So if I'm wrong about what I believe about the Corn-man, his baptism with the Spirit wouldn't be the proof of my error. Unless of course I've missed something.
Again, the Corinthians were supernaturally gifted by the Spirit, and they were baptized into the one Body. I Cor. 12:13 fits perfectly within the MidActs position.
Thanks, bud.
Randy
The outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost and after was the baptism WITH the Spirit, as foretold by John (Matt. 3:11) and by Jesus Himself (Acts 1:5). So yes, Corny and his people were baptized WITH the Spirit. Baptism BY the Spirit into Christ is the baptism for the Body of Christ that matters (i.e., without it, one is not in the Body and is therefore not saved). But I don't see where the two had to be mutually exclusive. Just as water baptism (which is not the "one baptism" of Eph. 4) was performed even by Paul after the institution of the Body, so were some baptized WITH the Spirit even as they were baptized BY the Spirit into Christ. The Corinthians are a good example. Gentile believers were given supernatural gifts of the Spirit, which would be a result of baptism WITH the Spirit. That baptism would eventually go away, though.
So if I'm wrong about what I believe about the Corn-man, his baptism with the Spirit wouldn't be the proof of my error. Unless of course I've missed something.
Again, the Corinthians were supernaturally gifted by the Spirit, and they were baptized into the one Body. I Cor. 12:13 fits perfectly within the MidActs position.
Thanks, bud.
Randy
amosman
New member
Chickenman,
I really like the way you opened this thread. I am not a mid-act believer. I have read much of the Plot but could not finish because it made so little sense to me. I have trouble dealing with TMI at one time. So maybe if I can ask you one or two questions at a time I might get it.
Did not Jesus say here that the Gentiles would trust in him ?
Mat 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
Mat 12:16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
Mat 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Mat 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Mat 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
I really like the way you opened this thread. I am not a mid-act believer. I have read much of the Plot but could not finish because it made so little sense to me. I have trouble dealing with TMI at one time. So maybe if I can ask you one or two questions at a time I might get it.
Did not Jesus say here that the Gentiles would trust in him ?
Mat 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
Mat 12:16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
Mat 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Mat 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Mat 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Last edited:
Repeating, but perhaps beneficial to the thread topic:
"Early Acts" and the “singleness of heart” issue
" And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, “ Acts 2:44-46
"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,.." Acts 4:32-34
"...all things common...": Acts 2:44, 4:32-34, 3:6
Even if you were casually reading the book of Acts, you cannot miss, and be struck by the account of thousands of people living together in harmony, with “and singleness of heart”, as they “were of one heart and of one soul” , and trusted each other, and shared everything. When has such unity ever existed, or endured, for any extended period of time in the history of “the church?” Where has “the church” all been of “one accord”?
This is why the state/experiences of “the church” in early Acts is so striking and remarkable. What is described there is beyond the experience of anything that has existed throughout “church history” , regardless of any forthcoming spin to the contrary. In the early Acts, those people, because they were all filled completely with the Holy Ghost, lived in perfect harmony, which was a foretaste of what it will be like in the beginning of the millennium reign/kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ on earth,* but members of the BOC, in this dispensation, are only exhorted to to strive for this in the epistles of Romans-Philemon. Regrettably, many believers only see glimpses of this practical unity throughout their lives.
*"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost," Hebrews 6:4
And the explanation for this perfect harmony in which the saints experienced in early Acts, as this is not being experienced in this dispensation? It is a preview/foretaste of what things will be like in the kingdom age, when the New Covenant will be in full affect for the nation Israel. This age was prophesied by the prophets, and prayed for by the Lord Jesus Christ, explaining Ez. 36:24-28
"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." Ez. 36:24-28
The connection between the supernatural unity amongst those souls in early Acts, brought by the Holy Ghost, as promised, was the direct result of the promises made in the OT, concerning the New Covenant, made to Israel, and as the answer to the prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 17, which clarifies the context. Notice the Saviour’s prayer:
“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:” Jn 17:17-22
The Lord Jesus Christ’s prayer was answered-the authority of one “ecumenical church”, if you will, was realized already in early Acts! It was an everyday, workable, present reality with the saints in early Acts. That unity is not an everyday reality in this age/dispensation for saints as members of the body of Christ today-it is only a goal which believers of this age are to strive/work towards, but never at the expense of compromising the word of truth rightly divided-2 Tim, 2:15, Eph. 4:1-3. Survey Romans-Philemon, and see that when we walk with the Lord Jesus Christ, we are not guaranteed perfect harmony with everyone. Paul’s words/exhortation(hope) to us:
“If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.” Ro. 12:18(14:19, 13:13; 1 Cor. 3:3; 2 Cor 12:20…..)
“Do all things without murmurings and disputings:” Philippians 2:14
Obviously, every believer of this present age desires to live in then midst of such harmony, and such a tranquil and peaceful experience, an experience that will “cause” His people to obey/walk, as stated in the Ezekiel passage, an experience where the LORD God has His perfect will and way with every saint, and there is no ongoing “tug of war”, ongoing struggle, within the believer, between the sin nature and the Holy Spirit of God . But also note the record of severe and immediate judgment of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. This serves as an indication of the type of government that will be in place during the kingdom age(theocracy-no democracy), and how judgment will be administered by the Lord Jesus Christ during that kingdom age, when believers do willfully sin against the Lord, per Numbers 15:29-31:
"Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."
Listen to the ancient/OT warnings of the Lord:
"Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." Ez. 11:17-20
However:
“But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD…..” Ez. 11:21
And:
“And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.. “ Ez. 20:38
As wonderful is the perfect harmony/unity amongst those thousands of believers was, and will be, and as it illustrates the magnificent spiritual promises aspect of the New Covenant, even so does the swift, exacting, immediate judgment of Ananias and Sapphira illustrate/predict how the LORD God “will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against“ the Lord, whose “ heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations.” The account of Ananias and Sapphira indicates, in no uncertain terms, how the LORD God deals with sin in this kingdom age. Every honest student of these words will have to affirm that. The undersigned will attest that He has not treated me as in early Acts, but shown not only mercy, but grace. But, one day soon, He will return to His people Israel, and visibly reign on His throne from Jerusalem, with an iron hand, with a “rod of iron”, and will rule this planet as a dictator-Rev. 12:5, 19:15…….
Again, rather than being a “prototype” for the body of Christ in this age, "the kingdom church", "the little flock", of early Acts was a preview/taste in an “embryonic” stage of what the millennial kingdom would, and will, be like. All that was hindering its realization, the establishment of the kingdom of heaven upon the earth, “the days of heaven upon the earth.”(Deut. 11:21), “the times of refreshing”(Acts 3:19), and the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, “the presence of the Lord”(Acts 3:19), was the national repentance of the nation Israel. And, as we know, they did not repent. Therefore, the LORD God began to unfold heaven’s “best kept secret”(as it is still today for most), by raising up the apostle Paul, “the apostle of the Gentiles”(Ro. 11:13), and committing to him, as His minister, steward....the dispensation of the grace of God(Eph. 3:1 ff).
Again, the spiritual blessing promised to the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not the body of Christ, under the NC, in “the last days” according to the Prophetic Program:
"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:1-3
"And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers. " Jeremiah 3:16-18
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more(future-my note). " Jer. 31:31-34
"Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." Jereimah 32:37-40
"Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." Ez. 11:17-20
"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." Ez. 36:24-28
Ez. Chapter 37.
"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them." verse 24
vs.
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away....." 2 Timothy 3
Notice "the last days" of Isaiah 2:1, vs. "the last days" of 2 Timothy 3?
"Early Acts" and the “singleness of heart” issue
" And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, “ Acts 2:44-46
"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,.." Acts 4:32-34
"...all things common...": Acts 2:44, 4:32-34, 3:6
Even if you were casually reading the book of Acts, you cannot miss, and be struck by the account of thousands of people living together in harmony, with “and singleness of heart”, as they “were of one heart and of one soul” , and trusted each other, and shared everything. When has such unity ever existed, or endured, for any extended period of time in the history of “the church?” Where has “the church” all been of “one accord”?
This is why the state/experiences of “the church” in early Acts is so striking and remarkable. What is described there is beyond the experience of anything that has existed throughout “church history” , regardless of any forthcoming spin to the contrary. In the early Acts, those people, because they were all filled completely with the Holy Ghost, lived in perfect harmony, which was a foretaste of what it will be like in the beginning of the millennium reign/kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ on earth,* but members of the BOC, in this dispensation, are only exhorted to to strive for this in the epistles of Romans-Philemon. Regrettably, many believers only see glimpses of this practical unity throughout their lives.
*"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost," Hebrews 6:4
And the explanation for this perfect harmony in which the saints experienced in early Acts, as this is not being experienced in this dispensation? It is a preview/foretaste of what things will be like in the kingdom age, when the New Covenant will be in full affect for the nation Israel. This age was prophesied by the prophets, and prayed for by the Lord Jesus Christ, explaining Ez. 36:24-28
"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." Ez. 36:24-28
The connection between the supernatural unity amongst those souls in early Acts, brought by the Holy Ghost, as promised, was the direct result of the promises made in the OT, concerning the New Covenant, made to Israel, and as the answer to the prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 17, which clarifies the context. Notice the Saviour’s prayer:
“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:” Jn 17:17-22
The Lord Jesus Christ’s prayer was answered-the authority of one “ecumenical church”, if you will, was realized already in early Acts! It was an everyday, workable, present reality with the saints in early Acts. That unity is not an everyday reality in this age/dispensation for saints as members of the body of Christ today-it is only a goal which believers of this age are to strive/work towards, but never at the expense of compromising the word of truth rightly divided-2 Tim, 2:15, Eph. 4:1-3. Survey Romans-Philemon, and see that when we walk with the Lord Jesus Christ, we are not guaranteed perfect harmony with everyone. Paul’s words/exhortation(hope) to us:
“If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.” Ro. 12:18(14:19, 13:13; 1 Cor. 3:3; 2 Cor 12:20…..)
“Do all things without murmurings and disputings:” Philippians 2:14
Obviously, every believer of this present age desires to live in then midst of such harmony, and such a tranquil and peaceful experience, an experience that will “cause” His people to obey/walk, as stated in the Ezekiel passage, an experience where the LORD God has His perfect will and way with every saint, and there is no ongoing “tug of war”, ongoing struggle, within the believer, between the sin nature and the Holy Spirit of God . But also note the record of severe and immediate judgment of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. This serves as an indication of the type of government that will be in place during the kingdom age(theocracy-no democracy), and how judgment will be administered by the Lord Jesus Christ during that kingdom age, when believers do willfully sin against the Lord, per Numbers 15:29-31:
"Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."
Listen to the ancient/OT warnings of the Lord:
"Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." Ez. 11:17-20
However:
“But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD…..” Ez. 11:21
And:
“And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.. “ Ez. 20:38
As wonderful is the perfect harmony/unity amongst those thousands of believers was, and will be, and as it illustrates the magnificent spiritual promises aspect of the New Covenant, even so does the swift, exacting, immediate judgment of Ananias and Sapphira illustrate/predict how the LORD God “will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against“ the Lord, whose “ heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations.” The account of Ananias and Sapphira indicates, in no uncertain terms, how the LORD God deals with sin in this kingdom age. Every honest student of these words will have to affirm that. The undersigned will attest that He has not treated me as in early Acts, but shown not only mercy, but grace. But, one day soon, He will return to His people Israel, and visibly reign on His throne from Jerusalem, with an iron hand, with a “rod of iron”, and will rule this planet as a dictator-Rev. 12:5, 19:15…….
Again, rather than being a “prototype” for the body of Christ in this age, "the kingdom church", "the little flock", of early Acts was a preview/taste in an “embryonic” stage of what the millennial kingdom would, and will, be like. All that was hindering its realization, the establishment of the kingdom of heaven upon the earth, “the days of heaven upon the earth.”(Deut. 11:21), “the times of refreshing”(Acts 3:19), and the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, “the presence of the Lord”(Acts 3:19), was the national repentance of the nation Israel. And, as we know, they did not repent. Therefore, the LORD God began to unfold heaven’s “best kept secret”(as it is still today for most), by raising up the apostle Paul, “the apostle of the Gentiles”(Ro. 11:13), and committing to him, as His minister, steward....the dispensation of the grace of God(Eph. 3:1 ff).
Again, the spiritual blessing promised to the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not the body of Christ, under the NC, in “the last days” according to the Prophetic Program:
"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:1-3
"And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers. " Jeremiah 3:16-18
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more(future-my note). " Jer. 31:31-34
"Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." Jereimah 32:37-40
"Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." Ez. 11:17-20
"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." Ez. 36:24-28
Ez. Chapter 37.
"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them." verse 24
vs.
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away....." 2 Timothy 3
Notice "the last days" of Isaiah 2:1, vs. "the last days" of 2 Timothy 3?
amosman
New member
A lot of good scripture there.
Blasphemy
Blasphemy
Hi stp, The blasphemy which Christ forgave was pretty specific in that Saul was at that time a believer in a different doctrine. Do you think Jesus would forgive the blasphemy of an apostate? Thanks for your clarifications. I greatly appreciate them. peace, bybee
Blasphemy
Hi stp, The blasphemy which Christ forgave was pretty specific in that Saul was at that time a believer in a different doctrine. Do you think Jesus would forgive the blasphemy of an apostate? Thanks for your clarifications. I greatly appreciate them. peace, bybee
Lovely gathering of scripture
Lovely gathering of scripture
This is a great post. It represents a sort of golden age of the church. An ideal way to live. We can't forget Ananias and wife though. Sham belief and greed seem always to lurk even in the most saintly precincts! But still, these passages give one hope and joy for a wondrous future with our Lord. Thanks John W. that was a comforting post! peace, bybee
Lovely gathering of scripture
This is a great post. It represents a sort of golden age of the church. An ideal way to live. We can't forget Ananias and wife though. Sham belief and greed seem always to lurk even in the most saintly precincts! But still, these passages give one hope and joy for a wondrous future with our Lord. Thanks John W. that was a comforting post! peace, bybee
Sounds good, amosman. Thanks for joining in.
The prophetic plan involved both Jew and Gentile. However, it would be Israel that would have preeminence over all nations during the kingdom. Israel would be a special people unto the Lord. And He would make them a kingdom of priests.
"Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." Ex. 19:5-6
"And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them." Deut. 28:13
So God's plan was to deliver a kingdom to Israel in which they would be special to God, above all nations of the earth. But the Gentile nations would still be able to come unto Jerusalem to worship the Lord (Zech. 14:16). The means by which they would be drawn to Jerusalem: the nation of priests themselves. They would be a light to the Gentile world..."And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them." Deut. 28:13
"The Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising." Is. 60:3
...sought out by Gentile seekers.
Thus says the Lord of hosts: "In those days (when the Lord dwells in the midst of Jerusalem, the City of Truth, the Mountain of the Lord of hosts, the Holy Mountain...Zech. 8:3) ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'" Zech. 8:23
Jesus quotes from Is. 42 in the Matthew passage you quoted. In that passage, Isaiah says God will "bring forth justice to the Gentiles" (Is. 42:1). The prophets are filled with statements about God judging the nations. So that's nothing new.
Isaiah also says:
"I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the Gentiles, to open blind eyes, to bring out prisoners from the prison, those who sit in darkness from the prison house." Is. 42:6
Again, just more of what had already been spoken of at length - God would draw the Gentile nations.
So by Jesus quoting that passage, He's not making any statement at all about the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is a spiritual entity in which there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. It is the one new man. Isaiah's (et al) prophetic words about Gentiles have nothing to do with the one new man. Gentiles will be the "tail" (of Deut. 28:13), while Israel will be the "head".
Jesus only reiterates prophecy.
Did that address your question, amosman?
Thanks,
Randy
Hi, bybee. I know this wasn't to me, but...
Are you referring to one who committed apostasy during the kingdom program? Under that program, he couldn't have been forgiven.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Heb. 6:4-6
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Heb. 10:26-27
However, under the dispensation of grace, any sin could be forgiven. And once forgiven, "apostacy" would be shameful but would not change that individual's position in Christ. All his trespasses would have been forgiven and he would be sealed in Christ for the day of redemption. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Heb. 10:26-27
I'm so glad you're participating in this thread, bybee. Thanks! :up:
Randy
amosman
New member
Let me soak it in for a bit. I'll have a follow up later.
"They would be a light to the Gentile world...
"The Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising." Is. 60:3
...sought out by Gentile seekers.
Thus says the Lord of hosts: "In those days (when the Lord dwells in the midst of Jerusalem, the City of Truth, the Mountain of the Lord of hosts, the Holy Mountain...Zech. 8:3) ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'" Zech. 8:23
So the plan was always to provide a means for the entire world to come to God. Israel and Gentiles both. Only with the prophecied plan, Israel would be above all nations.
Jesus quotes from Is. 42 in the Matthew passage you quoted. In that passage, Isaiah says God will "bring forth justice to the Gentiles" (Is. 42:1). The prophets are filled with statements about God judging the nations. So that's nothing new.
Isaiah also says:
"I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the Gentiles, to open blind eyes, to bring out prisoners from the prison, those who sit in darkness from the prison house." Is. 42:6
Again, just more of what had already been spoken of at length - God would draw the Gentile nations."-man of chicken
___________________________________
Correctamundo, chicken man ala Morelli's:
Arguing "Water baptism “in the name [by the authority] of Jesus Christ... ! All others are not authorized."
Notice, in "early Acts":
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." Acts 8:12
"(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:16
"And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." Acts 10:48
"When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Acts 19:5
vs.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen:..." Mt. 28:19,20
Why the difference?
Matthew 28:19, 20 looks forward to the conversion of all nations, the heathen, who know not the LORD God of the scriptures, hence "the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost(all 3 members of the Godhead), as contrasted with the nation of Israel, who knew, or should have known, of the LORD God of the scriptures, i.e., who we now know as God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, but were ignorant about the Lord Jesus Christ.
"For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations." Num. 23:9
This is the divine viewpoint-connect the dots.
Thus, Mt. 28 refers to all non Jews=Gentiles in the Millenium(per Numbers 23:9, the"all nations" excludes Jews). It will be a testimony by the Jewish remnant going forth to warn the nations before the second coming. The faithful remnant was to bring "good news" , "glad tidings", to the nations:
"And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." Isaiah 49:6
"And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles." Isaiah 66:19
The Lord Jesus Christ in Mt. 28:19,20 is referring to the Isaiah 52:15 promise in the future:
"So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider." Isaiah 52:15
"Check it out", per Acts 17:11, that baptism throughout the OT was a JEWISH water purification rite performed by SPRINKLING.
The Jews "never got out of Jerusalem" in Acts, never baptized in the name of the triune God(again, gentiles would need knowledge of all 3 persons, since they knew not God at all), never made disciples of all nations, and they have never taught the nations to observe the "all things."
This "Great Commission", like it or not, was temporarily set aside with the revelation of the mystery by the risen, ascended, and glorified Lord Jesus Christ from heaven to the apostle Paul. The book of Acts is not the historical telling of the "birth" of the body of Christ, but the telling of the offer of the literal kingdom of heaven ON EARTH to Israel, ACCORDING TO PROPHECY, the Lord Jesus Christ being the King, its subsequent rejection by Israel, and her stumbling, fall, diminishing, casting away, blindness, temporarily-Romans 11:11-36, and then the historical documentation of the raising up of the apostle Paul, a Jew by ethnicity, a Greek by culture, reflecting a "type" of the body of Christ, to unveil the hidden, secret mystery program. In time past, gentiles were to be blessed through Israel's rise to kingdom glory-through Israel as the channel, instrument by which the true LORD God is revealed to mankind. This has been temporarily put on hold(but will be fulfilled in the future). Now, in this dispensation, gentiles are now blessed through the nation Israel's fall:
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." Rom. 11:11
"The Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising." Is. 60:3
...sought out by Gentile seekers.
Thus says the Lord of hosts: "In those days (when the Lord dwells in the midst of Jerusalem, the City of Truth, the Mountain of the Lord of hosts, the Holy Mountain...Zech. 8:3) ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'" Zech. 8:23
So the plan was always to provide a means for the entire world to come to God. Israel and Gentiles both. Only with the prophecied plan, Israel would be above all nations.
Jesus quotes from Is. 42 in the Matthew passage you quoted. In that passage, Isaiah says God will "bring forth justice to the Gentiles" (Is. 42:1). The prophets are filled with statements about God judging the nations. So that's nothing new.
Isaiah also says:
"I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the Gentiles, to open blind eyes, to bring out prisoners from the prison, those who sit in darkness from the prison house." Is. 42:6
Again, just more of what had already been spoken of at length - God would draw the Gentile nations."-man of chicken
___________________________________
Correctamundo, chicken man ala Morelli's:
Arguing "Water baptism “in the name [by the authority] of Jesus Christ... ! All others are not authorized."
Notice, in "early Acts":
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." Acts 8:12
"(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:16
"And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." Acts 10:48
"When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Acts 19:5
vs.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen:..." Mt. 28:19,20
Why the difference?
Matthew 28:19, 20 looks forward to the conversion of all nations, the heathen, who know not the LORD God of the scriptures, hence "the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost(all 3 members of the Godhead), as contrasted with the nation of Israel, who knew, or should have known, of the LORD God of the scriptures, i.e., who we now know as God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, but were ignorant about the Lord Jesus Christ.
"For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations." Num. 23:9
This is the divine viewpoint-connect the dots.
Thus, Mt. 28 refers to all non Jews=Gentiles in the Millenium(per Numbers 23:9, the"all nations" excludes Jews). It will be a testimony by the Jewish remnant going forth to warn the nations before the second coming. The faithful remnant was to bring "good news" , "glad tidings", to the nations:
"And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." Isaiah 49:6
"And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles." Isaiah 66:19
The Lord Jesus Christ in Mt. 28:19,20 is referring to the Isaiah 52:15 promise in the future:
"So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider." Isaiah 52:15
"Check it out", per Acts 17:11, that baptism throughout the OT was a JEWISH water purification rite performed by SPRINKLING.
The Jews "never got out of Jerusalem" in Acts, never baptized in the name of the triune God(again, gentiles would need knowledge of all 3 persons, since they knew not God at all), never made disciples of all nations, and they have never taught the nations to observe the "all things."
This "Great Commission", like it or not, was temporarily set aside with the revelation of the mystery by the risen, ascended, and glorified Lord Jesus Christ from heaven to the apostle Paul. The book of Acts is not the historical telling of the "birth" of the body of Christ, but the telling of the offer of the literal kingdom of heaven ON EARTH to Israel, ACCORDING TO PROPHECY, the Lord Jesus Christ being the King, its subsequent rejection by Israel, and her stumbling, fall, diminishing, casting away, blindness, temporarily-Romans 11:11-36, and then the historical documentation of the raising up of the apostle Paul, a Jew by ethnicity, a Greek by culture, reflecting a "type" of the body of Christ, to unveil the hidden, secret mystery program. In time past, gentiles were to be blessed through Israel's rise to kingdom glory-through Israel as the channel, instrument by which the true LORD God is revealed to mankind. This has been temporarily put on hold(but will be fulfilled in the future). Now, in this dispensation, gentiles are now blessed through the nation Israel's fall:
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." Rom. 11:11
amosman
New member
Seems that Isaiah mentions a joining of Jew and Gentiles in these verses ?
Isa 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people
Doesn't Paul write that those believers that were formerly Gentiles are now joined with the Common Wealth of Israel and are fellow-citizens with Israel ?
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:19 So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners,( Gentiles) but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
_
Context is the restoration of Israel in the future, according to prophecy:The ''stranger", the foreigner, who has joined himself to "Jehovah Jesus", the Lord Jesus Christ, will no longer feel himself separated by a "wall" from the nation Israel, the LORD God's chosen people as to service, as in the past.
"Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree." Is. 56:3
The eunuch, the castrated one, will no longer consider himself a dry tree. That was what he always was considered in the past, for such a person, like a bastard, Ammonite, or Moabite, was not allowed to attend the assembly of the LORD:
"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD." Deut. 23:1
Thus, the point here is that no one will be barred from holy Zion any more for external reasons, that restored Israel will not be "narrow minded", if you will, but universal. Hence:
"Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." Is. 56:7
God will gather Israel from all countries, and cause the nations to flow to converted, restored Israel:
"The Lord GOD, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him." Is. 56:8
"Eph 2:19 So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners,( Gentiles) but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,"
It says "but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,"
not
"but ye are fellow-citizens with Israel"
amosman
New member
In the past didn't the "stranger or foreigner" have the option to be treated as if they were part of Israel ?
But if the former Gentiles become fellow-citizens with the saints, and the saints are citizens of Israel then wouldn't that make the former Gentiles also citizens of Israel ? Even if it were by adoption like when Jacob adopted (Gen 48:5 And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.) These two became part of Israel didn't they?
Doesn't even Paul write to the Romans that a Jew is one inwardly ?