For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

Ask Mr. Religion

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So, how about the weather? I wish it would rain more. How were the fireworks? :alien::wave:
I will donate $100 to TOL if it will establish an invitation only thread feature so this sort of nonsense can be curtailed. Anyone else want to match my pledge? And by the way, I have been unemployed for four months so $100 hurts, but it will be worth the pain of not eating a few meals to see this feature implemented.

Just think of the benefit to those who are honestly trying to learn something from others rather than subjecting everyone to someone's own egotistical and vapid desires to merely be seen or increase their post count.

AMR
 
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chickenman

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I will donate $100 to TOL if it will establish an invitation only thread feature so this sort of nonsense can be curtailed. Anyone else want to match my pledge? And by the way, I have been unemployed for four months so $100 hurts, but it will be worth the pain of not eating a few meals to see this feature implemented.

Just think of the benefit to those who are honestly trying to learn something from others rather than subjecting everyone to someone's own egotistical and vapid desires to merely be seen or increase their post count.

AMR
I would match it, AMR. Sounds like a good idea.
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
Repeating, but perhaps beneficial to the thread topic:


"Early Acts" and the “singleness of heart” issue

" And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, “ Acts 2:44-46

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,.." Acts 4:32-34

"...all things common...": Acts 2:44, 4:32-34, 3:6


Even if you were casually reading the book of Acts, you cannot miss, and be struck by the account of thousands of people living together in harmony, with “and singleness of heart”, as they “were of one heart and of one soul” , and trusted each other, and shared everything. When has such unity ever existed, or endured, for any extended period of time in the history of “the church?” Where has “the church” all been of “one accord”?

This is why the state/experiences of “the church” in early Acts is so striking and remarkable. What is described there is beyond the experience of anything that has existed throughout “church history” , regardless of any forthcoming spin to the contrary. In the early Acts, those people, because they were all filled completely with the Holy Ghost, lived in perfect harmony, which was a foretaste of what it will be like in the beginning of the millennium reign/kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ on earth,* but members of the BOC, in this dispensation, are only exhorted to to strive for this in the epistles of Romans-Philemon. Regrettably, many believers only see glimpses of this practical unity throughout their lives.

*"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost," Hebrews 6:4

And the explanation for this perfect harmony in which the saints experienced in early Acts, as this is not being experienced in this dispensation? It is a preview/foretaste of what things will be like in the kingdom age, when the New Covenant will be in full affect for the nation Israel. This age was prophesied by the prophets, and prayed for by the Lord Jesus Christ, explaining Ez. 36:24-28

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." Ez. 36:24-28

The connection between the supernatural unity amongst those souls in early Acts, brought by the Holy Ghost, as promised, was the direct result of the promises made in the OT, concerning the New Covenant, made to Israel, and as the answer to the prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 17, which clarifies the context. Notice the Saviour’s prayer:

“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:” Jn 17:17-22

The Lord Jesus Christ’s prayer was answered-the authority of one “ecumenical church”, if you will, was realized already in early Acts! It was an everyday, workable, present reality with the saints in early Acts. That unity is not an everyday reality in this age/dispensation for saints as members of the body of Christ today-it is only a goal which believers of this age are to strive/work towards, but never at the expense of compromising the word of truth rightly divided-2 Tim, 2:15, Eph. 4:1-3. Survey Romans-Philemon, and see that when we walk with the Lord Jesus Christ, we are not guaranteed perfect harmony with everyone. Paul’s words/exhortation(hope) to us:

If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.” Ro. 12:18(14:19, 13:13; 1 Cor. 3:3; 2 Cor 12:20…..)

“Do all things without murmurings and disputings:” Philippians 2:14

Obviously, every believer of this present age desires to live in then midst of such harmony, and such a tranquil and peaceful experience, an experience that will “cause” His people to obey/walk, as stated in the Ezekiel passage, an experience where the LORD God has His perfect will and way with every saint, and there is no ongoing “tug of war”, ongoing struggle, within the believer, between the sin nature and the Holy Spirit of God . But also note the record of severe and immediate judgment of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. This serves as an indication of the type of government that will be in place during the kingdom age(theocracy-no democracy), and how judgment will be administered by the Lord Jesus Christ during that kingdom age, when believers do willfully sin against the Lord, per Numbers 15:29-31:


"Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

Listen to the ancient/OT warnings of the Lord:

"Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." Ez. 11:17-20

However:

“But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD…..” Ez. 11:21

And:

And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.. “ Ez. 20:38

As wonderful is the perfect harmony/unity amongst those thousands of believers was, and will be, and as it illustrates the magnificent spiritual promises aspect of the New Covenant, even so does the swift, exacting, immediate judgment of Ananias and Sapphira illustrate/predict how the LORD God “will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against“ the Lord, whose “ heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations.” The account of Ananias and Sapphira indicates, in no uncertain terms, how the LORD God deals with sin in this kingdom age. Every honest student of these words will have to affirm that. The undersigned will attest that He has not treated me as in early Acts, but shown not only mercy, but grace. But, one day soon, He will return to His people Israel, and visibly reign on His throne from Jerusalem, with an iron hand, with a “rod of iron”, and will rule this planet as a dictator-Rev. 12:5, 19:15…….

Again, rather than being a “prototype” for the body of Christ in this age, "the kingdom church", "the little flock", of early Acts was a preview/taste in an “embryonic” stage of what the millennial kingdom would, and will, be like. All that was hindering its realization, the establishment of the kingdom of heaven upon the earth, “the days of heaven upon the earth.”(Deut. 11:21), “the times of refreshing”(Acts 3:19), and the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, “the presence of the Lord”(Acts 3:19), was the national repentance of the nation Israel. And, as we know, they did not repent. Therefore, the LORD God began to unfold heaven’s “best kept secret”(as it is still today for most), by raising up the apostle Paul, “the apostle of the Gentiles”(Ro. 11:13), and committing to him, as His minister, steward....the dispensation of the grace of God(Eph. 3:1 ff).

Again, the spiritual blessing promised to the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not the body of Christ, under the NC, in “the last days” according to the Prophetic Program:

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:1-3


"And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers. " Jeremiah 3:16-18

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more(future-my note). " Jer. 31:31-34

"Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." Jereimah 32:37-40


"Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." Ez. 11:17-20


"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." Ez. 36:24-28

Ez. Chapter 37.

"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them." verse 24

vs.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away....." 2 Timothy 3

Notice "the last days" of Isaiah 2:1, vs. "the last days" of 2 Timothy 3?

Great post. Anyone experienced these perilous times yet?
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
I will donate $100 to TOL if it will establish an invitation only thread feature so this sort of nonsense can be curtailed. Anyone else want to match my pledge? And by the way, I have been unemployed for four months so $100 hurts, but it will be worth the pain of not eating a few meals to see this feature implemented.

Just think of the benefit to those who are honestly trying to learn something from others rather than subjecting everyone to someone's own egotistical and vapid desires to merely be seen or increase their post count.

AMR

Can't you just ignore those posts (and posters)? For all you parents out there...haven't you practiced the ignoring when a child is acting up for attention? Or crying because they want something that they can't have? :cry: If you stick to your guns :Grizzly: they leave or stop since they aren't getting any attention?.....

Pam
 

Town Heretic

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Can't you just ignore those posts (and posters)? For all you parents out there...haven't you practiced the ignoring when a child is acting up for attention? Or crying because they want something that they can't have? :cry: If you stick to your guns :Grizzly: they leave or stop since they aren't getting any attention?.....

Pam
You could ignore profanity too, Pam. But aren't you encouraging the practice when you do? Now God knows I've been a little less than on topic a time or two...or three...well, let's just say it happens. But there's a difference between interjecting a humorous note (or the attempt at one) to provide a breath before the plunge (thanks Mr. T :nono: the other one) and running into a home tracking mud when you've been politely asked to refrain. The first may warrant a word, the second begs for discipline. :e4e:
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I will donate $100 to TOL if it will establish an invitation only thread feature so this sort of nonsense can be curtailed. Anyone else want to match my pledge? And by the way, I have been unemployed for four months so $100 hurts, but it will be worth the pain of not eating a few meals to see this feature implemented.

Just think of the benefit to those who are honestly trying to learn something from others rather than subjecting everyone to someone's own egotistical and vapid desires to merely be seen or increase their post count.

AMR


Good idea. :idea:

I'll match your pledge.

It would eliminate the rude and irritating intrusions habitually perpetuated around here.

Nang
 

bybee

New member
Nicely put.

Nicely put.

You could ignore profanity too, Pam. But aren't you encouraging the practice when you do? Now God knows I've been a little less than on topic a time or two...or three...well, let's just say it happens. But there's a difference between interjecting a humorous note (or the attempt at one) to provide a breath before the plunge (thanks Mr. T :nono: the other one) and running into a home tracking mud when you've been politely asked to refrain. The first may warrant a word, the second begs for discipline. :e4e:

I agree dear boy. The topic is worthy of serious consideration. I'm with you that a little humor can be uplifting and help the discussion along. I, generally, don't go where I'm not wanted. Unless there is danger to the vulnerable and/or the innocent. A closed mind cannot contribute to a discussion. peace, bybee
 

Sheila B

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GO AWAY
Let me start by asking that troublemakers and opposers who are already convinced of themselves please refrain from posting in this thread. I would appreciate it if people like godrulz, andyc, cistercian, and others with similar agendas stay away.
COME ON IN
Several people have expressed a sincere desire to learn more about MidActs Dispensationalism. Whether or not those people ultimately conclude the same is irrelevant. They are sincere inquisitors.
COLOR][/I][/B]
I'll kick it off by stating that MidActs Dispensationalism is an approach to reading and studying the Bible. Those of us who hold to this approach believe that we must read and study the Bible FORWARD, rather than BACKWARD. By this, I mean that we must understand what comes before Exodus before we can understand Exodus. We must understand "Old Testament" prophecy before we can understand Matthew. We must understand those things before we can understand what's going on in Acts. Thanks,
Randy



This has always been my position, too. Romans 15:4
Since I am catholic does that disquality my joining the thread? I am only half way through (I am starting over so I do not miss points), but thought it prudent to ask permission before joining the discussion. My intention is to learn. I will not join unless you say it is OK. I do not want prejudice against my input, that would not be fun for me. So, if you will let me join as a sincere inquirer, then fine. I would only ask that you treat me with the same respect that I hold for all of you. Fair?
 

amosman

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Originally Posted by chickenman View Post

So by Jesus quoting that passage, He's not making any statement at all about the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is a spiritual entity in which there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. It is the one new man. Isaiah's (et al) prophetic words about Gentiles have nothing to do with the one new man. Gentiles will be the "tail" (of Deut. 28:13), while Israel will be the "head".
So if Israel is the head and Gentiles are the tail, doesn't that make them of the same body?

Seems that Isaiah mentions a joining of Jew and Gentiles in these verses ?

Isa 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people



Doesn't Paul write that those believers that were formerly Gentiles are now joined with the Common Wealth of Israel and are fellow-citizens with Israel ?

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Eph 2:19 So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners,( Gentiles) but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
 

amosman

New member
chickenman said:
So by Jesus quoting that passage, He's not making any statement at all about the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is a spiritual entity in which there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile.
I think I am going to focus on this topic for now. Let me leave you with this question, What did Paul mean when he said that not all Israel is Israel? I'll be back on after dinner, later.
 

john w

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So if Israel is the head and Gentiles are the tail, doesn't that make them of the same body?

"...fellowheirs, and of the same body..." Do you see 'fellowheirs with Israel' in that passage? No! We are 'fellowheirs' with Christ, "in the same body",where there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, as there was in "time past"(Eph. 2 ff).

This is part of the mystery. Prior to it, the only way to the Messiah was by covenant THROUGH ISRAEL=time past. The OT, including "the gospels", knew absolutely NOTHING of the Gentiles being on "equal footing" with the Jews. Gentiles, in times past, were prophesied to be saved through Israel's rise to kingdom glory, Israel being the channel, the vehicle, the vessel by which the true LORD God would be revealed The Lord Jesus Christ, the 12, would not honor any Gentile request, , "wouldn't touch a Gentile with a ten foot pole", unless it honored the covenant of Gen 12 , made with the fathers=Israel=not the body of Christ:

" Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:..." Romans 15:8
 

amosman

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"...fellowheirs, and of the same body..." Do you see 'fellowheirs with Israel' in that passage? No! We are 'fellowheirs' with Christ, "in the same body",where there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, as there was in "time past"(Eph. 2 ff).

This is part of the mystery. Prior to it, the only way to the Messiah was by covenant THROUGH ISRAEL=time past. The OT, including "the gospels", knew absolutely NOTHING of the Gentiles being on "equal footing" with the Jews. Gentiles, in times past, were prophesied to be saved through Israel's rise to kingdom glory, Israel being the channel, the vehicle, the vessel by which the true LORD God would be revealed The Lord Jesus Christ, the 12, would not honor any Gentile request, , "wouldn't touch a Gentile with a ten foot pole", unless it honored the covenant of Gen 12 , made with the fathers=Israel=not the body of Christ:

" Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:..." Romans 15:8
Don't these verses say Jesus preached to those that were afar off (i.e. Gentiles ) ?
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
 

amosman

New member
"...fellowheirs, and of the same body..." Do you see 'fellowheirs with Israel' in that passage? No! We are 'fellowheirs' with Christ, "in the same body",where there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, as there was in "time past"(Eph. 2 ff).

This is part of the mystery. Prior to it, the only way to the Messiah was by covenant THROUGH ISRAEL=time past. The OT, including "the gospels", knew absolutely NOTHING of the Gentiles being on "equal footing" with the Jews. Gentiles, in times past, were prophesied to be saved through Israel's rise to kingdom glory, Israel being the channel, the vehicle, the vessel by which the true LORD God would be revealed The Lord Jesus Christ, the 12, would not honor any Gentile request, , "wouldn't touch a Gentile with a ten foot pole", unless it honored the covenant of Gen 12 , made with the fathers=Israel=not the body of Christ:

" Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:..." Romans 15:8

Originally Posted by amosman View Post
So if Israel is the head and Gentiles are the tail, doesn't that make them of the same body?
I was being a little facetious. Really I think the text only says that Israel would be the head and not the tail, it doesn't say anything about the Gentiles being the tail.
 

chickenman

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This has always been my position, too. Romans 15:4
Since I am catholic does that disquality my joining the thread? I am only half way through (I am starting over so I do not miss points), but thought it prudent to ask permission before joining the discussion. My intention is to learn. I will not join unless you say it is OK. I do not want prejudice against my input, that would not be fun for me. So, if you will let me join as a sincere inquirer, then fine. I would only ask that you treat me with the same respect that I hold for all of you. Fair?
You're welcome to join, Sheila. Come on in!
 

chickenman

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Hi, Amos.
Sorry I haven't gotten back with your other questions before now. I've very busy, sometimes only having time to either read or just drop a drive-by post. John has addressed your initial questions. Agree or disagree, did he adequately address your points so far?

I'll add to his points with a question. Do you agree that in prophecy and in the law, Gentiles could:
  • become circumcised, proselytes, and subsequently full participants in the nation of Israel
  • remain uncircumcised but still be blessed if they blessed Israel and worshipped God
  • remain uncircumcised and be judged as wicked enemies of Israel
?

So if Israel is the head and Gentiles are the tail, doesn't that make them of the same body?
Interesting point. But the metaphor was designed to show status. Israel was to be the special nation, above all nations. In the Body of Christ, Jesus Himself is the head, above all "body parts". Within that body, though, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile.
 

chickenman

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How can we be sure of this with Acts 2:47 ?
And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Hi, Sheila.
First I'd like to ask if you've made it all the way the thread, yet? If not, this question is *sort of* already addressed.
 
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