fool said:
stipe said:
...nstead i spend my time on entertainment at the expense of the memory of thousand year old kids.
The children may be long dead but that concept of God is still around.
or (as i choose to say) god is still around.
fool said:
stipe said:
please consider what you will gain if you win this argument. youve just convinced the world that we are under the thumb of a god who cares nothing for humanity. hope is meaningless and nowhere to be found. all we strive for will disappear and after that .. nothing .. at best. even the illusion of advancement through science and reason will fail when the suns explode and the universe collapses .. science itself dictates its own end.
I find it very unlikely I will convince the world of anything, they don't all worship the same Gods now, so it would be a heroic task indeed to convince them all that all their Gods were evil. And yes the universe may collapse some day, I would hope that as long as there were humans that they would treat each other humanely, so that what time they did have was spent in love and not hate.
humour me here for a moment .. you took the opportunity to plump me into the middle of a hypothetical situation .. try and imagine what you would gain if suddenly you were right and everybody saw it exactly as you see it. youve shown that god exists and hes just as likely to kill you as to throw you into a pit of fire. or could possibly the god you read about have some other way of existing that wouldnt mean doom for us all..?
fool said:
stipe said:
and please consider what a very unfair position you put the christian in when you make this argument. you ask us to take the place of a soldier from thousands of years ago in a gypsy nation wandering in a desert with numerous city-kingdoms threatening to wipe them out entirely. you then ask us to make a moral decision in a situation we know little if anything about .. a decision that you say youd make with certainty when the people who were there didnt make it. in fact the only rebellion shown was to steal money after having killed kids.
Sad indeed, they would hide a gold tea pot but not an innocent human being, a great illustation that they did percieve the incredible waste of their dealings but had their priorities skewed.
are you going to argue with me or agree with me? please make up your mind. if you cant decide then indicate which position you think is morally inferior (even if by only a millionth of a degree):
- the soldier who blindly follows orders because thats all he ever knew or
- the soldier who similarly blindly follows orders up till the point where he sees a bit of cash and disobeys orders to steal it.
fool said:
stipe said:
you ask us to help them make the right decision and then apply that hypothetical as if wed make the same decision in todays world. well ill make a decision. if god asks me to run a kid through i wont do it. not if he reveals himself in all his glory .. not in a million years. hows that? id tell him to put it away and then id hide the kid from him so he couldnt do anything ...
Then you are in rebellion against the God of the Bible, the ramifications of this fact are something you should examine.
and here is where your entire boatload of nails sinks like an anvil in soapy molecular acid. god HASNT asked me to kill any babies. and he wont. and you cant convince me otherwise. its possible you may try ... it might be entertaining. you may quote any scripture, any science book, any of my psychologists or counsellors (past or future) and no matter how convincing you are i will never concede that i maybe even might consider the mere potential of a hypothetical situation where the maddest madman would be slightly tempted to kill a baby. everything you post along these lines i will respond to with the sound assurance that you are a bad bad man and i never want to meet you.
reasoning why is easy - its a little thing called faith. i believe in my god. i trust him. he wont do that. youre immediately going to want to say "but he DID do that" to which i have no satisfactory answer for you. youll have to reach your place of security by yourself. ill not be moved from mine.
fool said:
stipe said:
You just told us you wouldn't do it, I am pleased to find a rightous man who would stand against those that would wontonly butcher infants.
please make up your mind .. am i standing against men or am i standing against god? if im standing against men we wouldnt have a 6 page long thread and longer posts because the answer is obvious. if im standing against god then what ive written above is what you should be reading. if im standing against man and god then im screwed.
fool said:
stipe said:
no you havent. youve shown what a waste of time and effort questioning god is. you question him because you hate him or you question him because you think he doesnt exist but in all of your questioning you merely imply that you are either illogical in the extreme .. or twisted beyond belief.
Enlighten yourself my friend, Yaweh is but one God of thousands that man has worshiped, and what you know of him was told to you by men who had their own ambitions. I don't hate God, I seek the true God. But when I die if the true God turns out to be a bloodthirsty egomaniac then I will hate him, and oppose him, and spend all the power of my being to defeat him, because there is such a thing as right and wrong.
enlighten myself? .. thousands of gods? thats in just one hindu village. im certainly not going to enlighten myself by burdening myself down with millions of gods. you want to seek the true god and i guess youve rejected the "true god" in the bible so youre off to make up youre own god to add to the wal-mart sale..? regardless of what doubt may be cast on the bible i will never doubt that the god i trust is the true god. that god must remain consistent with the bible no matter what i understand. this is not an eviable position and it draws fire easily. nonetheless, there is my line in the sand.
fool said:
stipe said:
imagine trying to prove your best friends non-existence because he said you shouldnt steal anything and then tomorrow he takes your car. thats illogical in the extreme.
Why not use the real question, what if your friend killed your car?
because if you get to pose hypotheticals to your own end then i get to do the same. answer the frigging question.
fool said:
stipe said:
now try to imagine up a few reasons as to why he may have taken your car. pretty easy right?
There is No set of circumstances that would excuse him methodicaly butchering your
car with a kitchen knife, and anyone who tried to convince you that what he did was right is twisted and evil.
i love that game ..
fool said:
stipe said:
now imagine you get to confront your friend. what do you do? call the cops on him and have him hauled away without considering anything he said or even giving him the chance to speak? thats twisted beyond belief.
You've got a dead car in your arms, what could he possibly say?
fun isnt it?
fool said:
stipe said:
fortunately everyone always has another possible path to follow that follows logic and right morality ...
If you mean to convince themselves that black is white and wrong is right then yes they do have a path to that, it's called religion.
thats not logical or moral fool ... i dont want to have to justify killing babies, but if it means giving up my faith then i will. fortunately im not compelled to defend my faith to a dishonest and poorly thought out hypothetical thread ...
or .. wait .. what the hell am i doing posting here then?
fool said:
Say hi to that bus driver for me.
s'funny.. i thought that was you ... ah well .. "hi fool"