Fast Food workers protest and demand more money.

[The Barbarian]

(Lighthouse, seeing the facts, changes his story a bit)

Raising the minimum wage has more of a tendency to increase underemployment than unemployment.

In previous raises of minimum wage, there's no evidence of all for an increase in underemployment. So that story doesn't work either.

And the fact that you think minimum wage and low wage employees are the only ones affected by an increase in minimum wage

It is a stupid argument. But notice It's not mine. It's the argument of many who oppose a minimum wage hike. In fact, as you can see, there's no detectable effect on general unemployment after minimum wage hikes, either.

However, if you look at how increases in minimum wage affect GDP:

You lose on that one, too. I keep thinking that you will eventually realize that you should check reality before you lecture us on it.

But you never do. You are remarkably poor at learning from experience.

...you're an idiot...

I don't think calling names is going to raise your credibility here. You should disabuse yourself of the idea that reality has to be what you hope it is.

 

[tetelestai]

Okay, seriously. What the hell. I know you're a Steelers fan and thus extra dim by nature, but this entire post of yours was idiotic, pure and simple.

So you don't think a "living wage" mandated by the government has nothing to do with Marxism, Communism, or Socialism?

 

[Granite]

So you don't think a "living wage" mandated by the government has nothing to do with Marxism, Communism, or Socialism?

You're talking about typewriters and I'm discussing orchids. Seriously, tet, you're making little sense and aren't addressing my actual posts at all.

When I pointed out how clueless, callous, and ignorant your comments were regarding the reality of minimum wage, you went unhinged.

Whenever the issue of poverty or the poor or the like comes up on TOL it seems the lion's share of Christians come down rooting for Scrooge, not against him.

 

[resurrected]

The conservative right simply just make excuses sometimes.

The problem is extremely simple, and the whole world knows it: ~yall greedy~

Why? Because it might mean the wealthy may have to spend vacation like a normal human being?

Amazing how a country who is bartering with Monopoly money should be so greedy within itself.

greed is the driving motivator behind capitalism

i find it curious that you don't see those demanding more money as being greedy :think:

 

[Truster]

''A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine''.

 

[resurrected]

You're talking about typewriters and I'm discussing orchids. Seriously, tet, you're making little sense and aren't addressing my actual posts at all.

When I pointed out how clueless, callous, and ignorant your comments were regarding the reality of minimum wage, you went unhinged.

Whenever the issue of poverty or the poor or the like comes up on TOL it seems the lion's share of Christians come down rooting for Scrooge, not against him.

you've been here how many years?

and you still don't realize the sentiment here is not against charity or a living wage, but intrusive governmental control?


what

a

moron

 

[PureX]

So you don't think a "living wage" mandated by the government has nothing to do with Marxism, Communism, or Socialism?

No more than painting your house when it needs it, does.

Would you refuse to paint your house because someone told you that it's politically incorrect? It's a house. It needs paint. So you paint it. It's not a political decision. It's a functional decision.

 

[tetelestai]

it seems the lion's share of Christians come down rooting for Scrooge, not against him.

Classic strawman.

I'm all for helping the poor. In fact, so is my church.

What I am AGAINST, is the government taking money from people that earn it, and giving it to the poor. In doing so, the government has created a giant bureaucracy that wastes half the money on themselves, and the poor are so dependent of the government, they have no incentive to work.

 

[tetelestai]

No more than painting your house when it needs it, does.

Would you refuse to paint your house because someone told you that it's politically incorrect? It's a house. It needs paint. So you paint it. It's not a political decision. It's a functional decision.

First off, my house is made of bricks, and the trim is made of vinyl. It never gets painted.

Secondly, it is a political decision to implement a living wage. If it wasn't a political decision, then it wouldn't be politicians that have to do it.

 

[Granite]

Classic strawman.

I'm all for helping the poor. In fact, so is my church.

What I am AGAINST, is the government taking money from people that earn it, and giving it to the poor. In doing so, the government has created a giant bureaucracy that wastes half the money on themselves, and the poor are so dependent of the government, they have no incentive to work.

It's not straw at all. It's perfectly accurate. Poor? Well, you deserve it. Must not be working hard enough. And so forth. This is the stuff "are there no workhouses?" are made of.

The minimum wage has nothing to do with anyone taking your money (as if this concept in and of itself is so terrible) and just handing it to somebody. Speaking blithely of "the poor" the way you're carrying on makes you sound more and more clueless.

 

[resurrected]

It's not straw at all. It's perfectly accurate. Poor? Well, you deserve it. Must not be working hard enough.

nobody's saying that

and thus, a strawman :idunno:

 

[tetelestai]

The minimum wage has nothing to do with anyone taking your money (as if this concept in and of itself is so terrible)

You don't seem to understand business.

I'm a small business owner with 8 employees.

If my payroll is increased, my social security tax and medicare tax is increased, my workers comp is increased, my unemployment tax is increased, and my general business insurance is increased because it is based on gross wages.

So, the only way I can make up for these additional costs, is either to raise my prices, or get rid of an employee or two.

Also, you don't seem to understand that raising wages means more tax revenue to the government (local, state, and fed). Which is why the Democrats are always for raising wages, and the Republicans are always against it.

as if this concept in and of itself is so terrible

It is terrible.

The government is completely incompetent when it comes to redistributing the wealth.

 

[tetelestai]

nobody's saying that

and thus, a strawman :idunno:

Yep.

It's classic liberal propaganda. "Conservatives are greedy corporation lovers who hate the poor, while liberals just want to help the poor.....blah, blah, blah."

It is the Conservatives who are the ones who actually give money and help the poor, while the Liberals do nothing. The Liberals idea of helping the poor, is claiming corporations are greedy, and therefore money should be taken from them, given to the government, who will then in turn use the money to help the poor.

 

[Balerion the Black]

IOW, you can't answer the question.

Neither can Barbarian.

Funny how you guys want the minimum wage increased, but none of you can tell us how much it should be increased to, nor can you guys tell us at what point it hurts the economy.

The data speaks for itself. Minimum wage goes up, the economy perks up. And while it stands to reason that at some point if we were to increase the minimum wage beyond that it would have a negative effect as businesses would be unable to make a profit, the minimum wage has never been increased to such a point.

Back in the 60's the minimum wage was somewhere around $20 in today's money, and the economy was fine.

That's pretty funny.

Does that mean that Charles Darwin,Karl Marx, Aleister Crowley/MSNBC News/George Soros does all your thinking for you?

Aleister Crowley? :rotfl:

I do my own thinking for myself, thank you very much.

While I have yet to see any evidence of rational thought from you.

So you don't think a "living wage" mandated by the government has nothing to do with Marxism, Communism, or Socialism?

So let me get this straight - the government shoving its nose into everyone's bedroom to make sure that no "unapproved" sexual activities are occuring, or into a woman's uterus to make sure she doesn't make the "wrong" decisions regarding her own body are perfectly okay by people like you, but God (literally) forbid that a supposedly elected by the people tries to raise the living standard of the people that it is supposed to represent.

 

[Granite]

You don't seem to understand business.

Well this guy does, so check it out. Very interesting perspective.

http://www.slate.com/articles/busin...r_raising_the_minimum_wage_better_living.html

I'd also suggest you look into the whole Market Basket situation that blew up right in my neck in the woods up here in New England.

Long story short, it's perfectly possible to pay your employees a livable wage, provide benefits, and run a successful company. What sets my teeth on edge is the assumption that it's not merely a business's right to pay their employees next to nothing but that there's something noble in a company doing so.

 

[Balerion the Black]

You don't seem to understand business.

I'm a small business owner with 8 employees.

If my payroll is increased, my social security tax and medicare tax is increased, my workers comp is increased, my unemployment tax is increased, and my general business insurance is increased because it is based on gross wages.

So, the only way I can make up for these additional costs, is either to raise my prices, or get rid of an employee or two.

Also, you don't seem to understand that raising wages means more tax revenue to the government (local, state, and fed). Which is why the Democrats are always for raising wages, and the Republicans are always against it.



It is terrible.

The government is completely incompetent when it comes to redistributing the wealth.

If your business cannot get by while paying its employees a fair wage, then it does not deserve to exist.

 

[bybee]

The data speaks for itself. Minimum wage goes up, the economy perks up. And while it stands to reason that at some point if we were to increase the minimum wage beyond that it would have a negative effect as businesses would be unable to make a profit, the minimum wage has never been increased to such a point.

Back in the 60's the minimum wage was somewhere around $20 in today's money, and the economy was fine.



Aleister Crowley? :rotfl:

I do my own thinking for myself, thank you very much.

While I have yet to see any evidence of rational thought from you.



So let me get this straight - the government shoving its nose into everyone's bedroom to make sure that no "unapproved" sexual activities are occuring, or into a woman's uterus to make sure she doesn't make the "wrong" decisions regarding her own body are perfectly okay by people like you, but God (literally) forbid that a supposedly elected by the people tries to raise the living standard of the people that it is supposed to represent.

If it works, fine! While many people are poor through no actions of their own many people are poor through actions of their own and they shall always be poor because they squander their resources and oh yes they squander my resources too.
Many of the unwed mothers are free to make a choice which requires society to support. Many unwed father's are busy making more babies, drop out of school, resort to illegal and often violent behavior. Again society is required to support them.
I believe in a helping hand to those who are in need through no fault of their own.
I'm not an economist so I don't know what elevating the minimum wage will do to the economy. I hope that by helping working people at the lower end of the economic circle, we are helping society in general.

 

[The Barbarian]

IOW, you can't answer the question.

Neither can Barbarian.

I gave you an answer, but you were looking for some kind of a one-size-fits-all response that would be simple enough for you to understand without knowing anything at all about economics.

But as I pointed out, reality isn't obligated to be simple enough for you to understand. There re a lot of technical articles available, concerning the optimum minimum wage and how to determine it for any particular set of circumstances, but of course you'd need to learn something about economics to read them and get anything out of them.

Funny how you guys want the minimum wage increased, but none of you can tell us how much it should be increased to, nor can you guys tell us at what point it hurts the economy.

See above. Thinking does take time and effort, but it has its own rewards. Absolute certainty and simplistic solutions are usually not two of them.

 

[tetelestai]

What sets my teeth on edge is the assumption that it's not merely a business's right to pay their employees next to nothing but that there's something noble in a company doing so.

How do you not understand that the employee isn't forced to work at a business that pays minimum wage?

The employee making minimum wage should be looking on Craigslist for a job that pays higher than minimum wage.

 

[Granite]

If it works, fine! While many people are poor through no actions of their own many people are poor through actions of their own and they shall always be poor because they squander their resources and oh yes they squander my resources too.
Many of the unwed mothers are free to make a choice which requires society to support. Many unwed father's are busy making more babies, drop out of school, resort to illegal and often violent behavior. Again society is required to support them.
I believe in a helping hand to those who are in need through no fault of their own.
I'm not an economist so I don't know what elevating the minimum wage will do to the economy. I hope that by helping working people at the lower end of the economic circle, we are helping society in general.

Replace the word "poor" in this post with "rich," then tell me what you think.

I'm serious.