Fast Food workers protest and demand more money.

[Alate_One]

Translation: forcing business owners to pay substandard workers more than they're worth when compared with efficient workers, which can also discourage hard workers from trying as hard.

But if you let businesses do everything they want you get the Triangle Fire. So you need a balance, not no regulation or regulating everything. But I'm sure balance for you is beyond comprehension. :chuckle:

Regulated mercy? Enforced mercy?

Mercy demanded by the people as a whole. You do know you live in a democracy, right?

 

[musterion]

But if you let businesses do everything they want you get the Triangle Fire. So you need a balance, not no regulation or regulating everything. But I'm sure balance for you is beyond comprehension. :chuckle:

Force owners to pay incompetents/shiftless workers more than they're worth or else everyone will die in a massive fire? That's your point?

Mercy demanded by the people as a whole.

What if I reject your concept of mercy? It's to be forced on those who don't agree by men with guns, yes?

You do know you live in a democracy, right?

Yes, now, unfortunately. It was intended to be a Republic (you probably hate that).

 

[Alate_One]

Force owners to pay incompetents/shiftless workers more than they're worth or else everyone will die in a massive fire? That's your point?

No, the point is you need minimum standards. Nobody's talking about forcing people to pay incompetent workers. You fire the incompetent workers anyway . . . What we're talking about is putting a floor on people's pay. There already is one, we're just talking about increasing it.

So you think increasing minimum wage = forcing employers to pay incompetent people with guns.

What if I reject your concept of mercy? It's to be forced on those who don't agree by men with guns, yes?

That's how government works, even democratic government. The people or the people's representatives decide on a course of action. You abide by the law. If you don't like it you work to get the law changed. Everyone has to abide by laws they don't like. But that's what it means to live in a society with laws.

Yes, now, unfortunately. It was intended to be a Republic (you probably hate that).

A Republic is a TYPE of democracy, a representative democracy.

It's like saying a square isn't a rectangle because it's a specific type of rectangle.

And in many cases you do get direct democracy through ballot initiatives, so it's not even a pure republic.

 

[Stripe]

More hours generally equals more work. That's why the workers were upset. They felt the pay was unequal because people who WORKED LESS got the same as them. Which you (and most of the others in this thread) are making the exact same argument. That's it's unfair to pay people who work less or work jobs that don't require as much education as much as people who are more skilled or work more.

Nobody has said anything remotely close to this.

You've taken the words of Jesus that uphold a man's right to do with his money as he pleases and twisted them into some weird liberal "theology."

Liberal theology is easy to spot because it is clearly a lengthy departure from the word of God.

What people have said is that enforcing minimum wage rules has necessary consequences. When the government forces wages up, it necessarily has an effect on employment decisions and prices.

It's the facts you can't deal with, which is why you spend so much time ranting about nonsense.

I'm happy to pay more for a burger so that people can have a living wage. Are you?

:darwinsm:

Apply your accidentally clear thinking evenly.

Everyone will be paying a bit more for almost everything, meaning the imaginary wage increase you feel good about "providing" is at best zero and in practice negative.

 

[musterion]

No, the point is you need minimum standards.

If the marketplace were left alone, most people would fine their level and their place within it. What you propose out of the goodness of your heart (and other people's wallets) is to artificially level a playing field that in no way should be artificially leveled...unless one's true goal is to punish achievement and throttle business, because that's the effect it has.

Nobody's talking about forcing people to pay incompetent workers.

Wrong. You're precisely proposing forcing people to pay incompetent workers MORE THAN THEY ARE WORTH TO THE BUSINESS.

You fire the incompetent workers anyway . . .

Good thing too, right?

What we're talking about is putting a floor on people's pay. There already is one, we're just talking about increasing it.

Then why not just immediately jack it to $20 or $30 an hour nationwide? If you really want to help "the working poor" (almost all of whom can, oddly enough, afford cellphones, tats and facial piercings), and if more money will solve their problems, why take such baby steps in increasing the MW?

So you think increasing minimum wage = forcing employers to pay incompetent people with guns.

You totally misread what I wrote. What would happen to an employer who refuses to pay MW?

That's how government works, even democratic government. The people or the people's representatives decide on a course of action. You abide by the law. If you don't like it you work to get the law changed.

What are you telling me for? Tell that to the people willing to hurt their own franchise's owners by walking out and sitting in the street all day instead of working, and THEN threatening to riot if they're not paid for their shift. That's lawlessness, and I hope you're not so far gone as to defend it.

Everyone has to abide by laws they don't like. But that's what it means to live in a society with laws.

Again, see above points about forcing people to pay undesirables more than they're worth. Because that's all it is: FORCE, so people like you can feel better about yourselves while actually solving nothing.

A Republic is a TYPE of democracy, a representative democracy.

A democracy boils down to majority rule, which depraved people naturally gravitate toward. A republic is supposed to be bound by inviolable laws that no majority can change on a whim, and at least not without extraordinary circumstances. Hence you get presidents who complain about the restrictions of the Constitution places upon him (which was the point).

 

[Alate_One]

Nobody has said anything remotely close to this.

You've taken the words of Jesus that uphold a man's right to do with his money as he pleases and twisted them into some weird liberal "theology."

Oh the liberal theology . . AKA the point of the parable :chuckle: By your accounting we should never be as merciful to other human beings as God is to us . . .

What people have said is that enforcing minimum wage rules has necessary consequences. When the government forces wages up, it necessarily has an effect on employment decisions and prices.

Let's go the the US Department of Labor . .Oh they seem to have a MYTHBUSTER page.

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs. Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016. Myth: Small business owners can't afford to pay their workers more, and therefore don't support an increase in the minimum wage. Not true: A June 2014 survey found that more than 3 out of 5 small business owners support increasing the minimum wage to $10.10. Small business owners believe that a higher minimum wage would benefit business in important ways: 58% say raising the minimum wage would increase consumer purchasing power. 56% say raising the minimum wage would help the economy. In addition, 53% agree that with a higher minimum wage, businesses would benefit from lower employee turnover, increased productivity and customer satisfaction.

It's the facts you can't deal with, which is why you spend so much time ranting about nonsense.

Irony meter broke again. :chuckle:

Everyone will be paying a bit more for almost everything, meaning the imaginary wage increase you feel good about "providing" is at best zero and in practice negative.

Wrong. If higher minimum wages were so damaging, we'd have had the worst economic growth when they were highest, unfortunately for you, the facts don't bear it out.

There's no discernible effect of minimum wage increases on the economy. So why are you against it?

The thing about higher wages, is they don't go into a black hole. The workers turn around and spend them. Ever hear of Henry Ford?

 

[rexlunae]

Apply your accidentally clear thinking evenly.

Everyone will be paying a bit more for almost everything, meaning the imaginary wage increase you feel good about "providing" is at best zero and in practice negative.

That's the big fallacy of your thinking here, Stripe. You think the price of a commodity is simply the sum of the costs to produce it. That isn't true. The price of a commodity is determined by a demand curve, that related how much of a commodity people will by at a given price. That curve doesn't automatically shift just because workers are getting paid more. Unless it raises the costs so much that it is unprofitable to make the commodity, the business is going to have to eat much of the cost themselves, or they sabotage their own business.

And even if all of the businesses that pay minimum wage simply don't have the option of eating the cost of the pay hike, it still wouldn't work out as you say. The minimum wage is only paid to a minority of the workforce, so even in the worst case you wouldn't expect prices to inflate equal to the wage increase on the average anyway.

 

[musterion]

the business is going to have to eat much of the cost themselves, or they sabotage their own business.

Isn't that much the same thing, at least for many smaller businesses?

 

[rexlunae]

Isn't that much the same thing, at least for many smaller businesses?

Perhaps in the case of businesses that are't making much money for anyone. I don't think we should hold up wages for everyone out of concern for those though. On the other hand, small businesses that do pay a living wage would benefit from the removal of some unfair competition by large companies.

 

[musterion]

Perhaps in the case of businesses that are't making much money for anyone. I don't think we should hold up wages for everyone out of concern for those though.

You do realize that can be taken as, "Those employees can go to _____"? Jobs are jobs, after all.

 

[rexlunae]

You do realize that can be taken as, "Those employees can go to _____"?

It could if one were inclined toward misrepresentation.

Jobs are jobs, after all.

Yeah, who cares if people can get by on their jobs?

I suppose we could cut the minimum wage in half. It might create a few more jobs that still wouldn't pay the bills and would trap people in poverty forever. But a job's a job, right?

And maybe we could just bring back slavery. Think of all the jobs we'd create if you don't have to pay people at all.

 

[99lamb]

Granite
The ones who buried their ears, screeched, and howled.
Yeah, those same guys.
Jesus I know.
And Paul I know.
But...who are you?

15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?”

irony, I dunno.

 

[99lamb]

The argument remains the same: Should and does the government have the right to tell the private sector business owner what to pay his employee.
If the McDonald's workers want more money for their jobs then by all means form a union, strike, see if the power of collective bargaining will determine more money, that is not a negative I actually agree, its the idea of government imposing on the private sector wage increases that's the issue.
Samuel Gompers or Carl Marx, Gompers didn't like the Socialists but believed in collective bargaining. Let's see if the fast food worker, where there is a great deal of turn-over, because for the majority it is an entry level, transitional job can organize for hirer wages.
Second, it will be a difficult road because McDonalds the evil corporation is franchised owned.
The $15hr movement is fueled by Socialists, good luck with the emotional appeals.

 

[Yorzhik]

That's the big fallacy of your thinking here, Stripe. You think the price of a commodity is simply the sum of the costs to produce it.

It's true that the price of a commodity is simply the sum of the costs to produce it if competition in the industry is fierce (or only negligibly otherwise). Is the competition in the fast food industry fierce?

 

[The Barbarian]

Alate_One writes:

Oh they seem to have a MYTHBUSTER page.

I showed them the data several times. They don't want to hear it, and they won't talk about it.

"It has to be false; I don't want it to be true." seems to be the general response on the right.

 

[Granite]

Are there no workhouses? Are there no prisons?

And lo, the dogs came and licked his sores.

 

[Granite]

I'll repost this for tet's sake, assuming he hasn't beaten himself to death in the throes of being a Steelers fan. (Folks, folks, come on: Nobody's perfect.)

No, let's look at you.

You say, you're a Christian.

Are you homeless? Are you poor?

Because he said so.

Do you live as the least amongst these?

No?

Cause he said he'd be there.

Whenever there are poor people, or raped people, or out of my life jeez am I so screwed, where...where exactly are you?

Jesus never praised the rich.

Never praised the strong.

You're a pack of wacks who think Jesus done you a favor.

Blessed are the rich, for they shall surely inherit the earth.

I'm so glad I'm not like this tax collector. I mean, seriously--have you seen this guy?

Lord, this beggar keeps showing up. His dogs, too. Can you wrangle that for a bro?

 

[resurrected]

shut up satan

 

[Granite]

I wasn't aware the gospel actually consisted of "frankly, Lord, they should probably rot."

Show me an instance of Jesus glorifying the rich.

Did he ever curse the poor for their sloth? Ever?

What in the living hell is wrong with you people?

What of the widow and her mite? You'd be the guys jeering at her to just get a job.

 

[tetelestai]

shut up satan

He's just really cranky because his Patriots just got spanked by the Miami Dolphins.