bsmitts
New member
By the way: Language is key in arguments. And sadly, that's what most debates end up being about "language"
Faith to believe on Christ !
- Thread starter beloved57
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By the way: Language is key in arguments. And sadly, that's what most debates end up being about "language"
bsmitts
New member
No I'm not interested in your view that it is God's will that all but a chosen few perish. It was never God's will that people sin. You
Calvinists are duped into believing that everything is God's will, but it isn't. Not everything is God's will. For instance, God didn't want Adam and Eve to disobey him. He gave them a way to do so sure. But it was not his plan that they die spiritually.
beloved57
Well-known member
The Spirits work precedes Faith !
The Spirits work precedes Faith !
We know Spiritual Birth must precede Faith/Belief of the Truth, which Truth is the Gospel, because belief of the Truth is resultant/consequent of and the fruit of the Sanctification of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Its the Spirits Work on behalf of Christ's finished work, to secure and or bring about Faith in Christ, or belief of the Truth or the Gospel which is the Word of Truth Eph 1:13; and its only when the Spirit works in this, that the Gospel becomes the Power of God unto Salvation to everyone that is believing Rom 1:16; But yet, if no Sanctification of the Spirit, no belief of the Truth unto Salvation.
Remember Jesus Praying for all whom He would die for said:
Jn 17:17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth
In answer to His Beloved Son, the Father upon His ascencision did give Him the Son the Holy Spirit Acts 2:33
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
And the Holy Spirit from Christ effects His Sanctifying Work upon them Christ died for, to bring them to belief of the Truth, which is the end of Sanctifying them through the Truth !
The Spirits work precedes Faith !
We know Spiritual Birth must precede Faith/Belief of the Truth, which Truth is the Gospel, because belief of the Truth is resultant/consequent of and the fruit of the Sanctification of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Its the Spirits Work on behalf of Christ's finished work, to secure and or bring about Faith in Christ, or belief of the Truth or the Gospel which is the Word of Truth Eph 1:13; and its only when the Spirit works in this, that the Gospel becomes the Power of God unto Salvation to everyone that is believing Rom 1:16; But yet, if no Sanctification of the Spirit, no belief of the Truth unto Salvation.
Remember Jesus Praying for all whom He would die for said:
Jn 17:17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth
In answer to His Beloved Son, the Father upon His ascencision did give Him the Son the Holy Spirit Acts 2:33
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
And the Holy Spirit from Christ effects His Sanctifying Work upon them Christ died for, to bring them to belief of the Truth, which is the end of Sanctifying them through the Truth !
beloved57
Well-known member
Christ Promises to give Faith to Sheep !
Christ Promises to give Faith to Sheep !
Did you know that Christ Himself Promises to give them He died for, His Sheep, Faith to Believe in Him ?
When He says this Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
When He says that other Sheep He has [meaning the Gentiles] and them also He must bring Jn 10:14-16 this He does by bestowing upon them Both Faith and Repentance, bringing them and causing them to believe are the same thing !
Notice He said for a certain that they shall hear His Voice, which is what gives them Faith, for it is written Rom 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Or
In the original the word for word is rhema and means:
a thing spoken, (a) a word or saying of any kind, as command, report, promise, (b) a thing, matter, business.
rhḗma (from 4483 /rhéō, "to speak") – a spoken word, made "by the living voice"
It means also the Living Voice ! and also in the original , the Word God is actually Christos :
Anointed One; the Messiah, the Christ.
So Faith cometh by Hearing the Living Voice of Christ, and thats why He says again in Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
He brings them to Faith by causing them to Hear His Voice. In fact is Heb 12:2 the word author as in Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
That word is made up of the word agō which means, I bring/ lead, bring forth, and its the same word for bring in Jn 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, G71 and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
So He must lead or bring them to Faith, they shall Hear His Voice, thats how and why He is the author of their Faith.
So in Jn 10:16 Christ ensures that His Sheep He lays down His life for Jn 10:14, that He shall lead and or bring them to Faith, by them hearing His Voice, which is How Faith comes Rom 10:17 !
Christ Promises to give Faith to Sheep !
Did you know that Christ Himself Promises to give them He died for, His Sheep, Faith to Believe in Him ?
When He says this Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
When He says that other Sheep He has [meaning the Gentiles] and them also He must bring Jn 10:14-16 this He does by bestowing upon them Both Faith and Repentance, bringing them and causing them to believe are the same thing !
Notice He said for a certain that they shall hear His Voice, which is what gives them Faith, for it is written Rom 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Or
In the original the word for word is rhema and means:
a thing spoken, (a) a word or saying of any kind, as command, report, promise, (b) a thing, matter, business.
rhḗma (from 4483 /rhéō, "to speak") – a spoken word, made "by the living voice"
It means also the Living Voice ! and also in the original , the Word God is actually Christos :
Anointed One; the Messiah, the Christ.
So Faith cometh by Hearing the Living Voice of Christ, and thats why He says again in Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
He brings them to Faith by causing them to Hear His Voice. In fact is Heb 12:2 the word author as in Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
That word is made up of the word agō which means, I bring/ lead, bring forth, and its the same word for bring in Jn 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, G71 and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
So He must lead or bring them to Faith, they shall Hear His Voice, thats how and why He is the author of their Faith.
So in Jn 10:16 Christ ensures that His Sheep He lays down His life for Jn 10:14, that He shall lead and or bring them to Faith, by them hearing His Voice, which is How Faith comes Rom 10:17 !
Nanja
Well-known member
Amen!
Because Christ is The Author and Finisher of the Faith for the Sheep He died for,
the Elect of God chosen In Union with Him to have Eternal Life Eph. 1:4-5;
even then He was their Surety Heb. 7:22. That is the reason why they shall Believe, have Faith in Him,
for He gives them Spiritual Life John 6:33 by which they are able to Hear His Voice John 10:16.
So because of their Union in Christ John 10:28-29 they must come to Faith in Him that's why He,
The Shepherd and Bishop of their souls 1 Pet 2:25; Heb. 13:20, is the Causer of their Faith and Repentance.
~~~~~
beloved57
Well-known member
Amen!
beloved57
Well-known member
1 Cor 12:3
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Understand, there is not a True Faith in Christ, in His Person and Work, except its the result of the Spirit's Testification of Him in us Jn 15:26
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify[ give evidence]of me:
By which He takes the Spiritual Things of and about Christ and shows/reveals them to us Jn 16:14
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
1 Cor 2:10,14
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerne
The Gospel of Christ must be Spiritually discerned in order to believe it, and in order for that, we must first have been given Spiritual Life by the Spirit !
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Understand, there is not a True Faith in Christ, in His Person and Work, except its the result of the Spirit's Testification of Him in us Jn 15:26
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify[ give evidence]of me:
By which He takes the Spiritual Things of and about Christ and shows/reveals them to us Jn 16:14
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
1 Cor 2:10,14
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerne
The Gospel of Christ must be Spiritually discerned in order to believe it, and in order for that, we must first have been given Spiritual Life by the Spirit !
beloved57
Well-known member
Faith and Salvation/Justification !
Faith and Salvation/Justification !
Faith in regards to Salvation/Justification will serve as an stumblingblock to the non elect, and its not until we are given understanding, we make it a work, a condition that the natural man does in order to get saved and or Justified before God, or to be delivered from the penalty of our sins. However the role of Faith biblically in Justification/Salvation is a declarative one, in that it receives the Truth of God into conscience as it is declared via the Gospel, causing what is declared to be persuasively believed, trusted in regards to their already factual Salvation/Justification accomplished solely by Christ Eph 1:13 ! Until that is understood, it shall remain an stumbling block !
Faith and Salvation/Justification !
Faith in regards to Salvation/Justification will serve as an stumblingblock to the non elect, and its not until we are given understanding, we make it a work, a condition that the natural man does in order to get saved and or Justified before God, or to be delivered from the penalty of our sins. However the role of Faith biblically in Justification/Salvation is a declarative one, in that it receives the Truth of God into conscience as it is declared via the Gospel, causing what is declared to be persuasively believed, trusted in regards to their already factual Salvation/Justification accomplished solely by Christ Eph 1:13 ! Until that is understood, it shall remain an stumbling block !
I find it strange that you bang on about faith to believe and yet you refuse to give an account of the moment you first believed. Is that because you believe in Calvinism and not the evangelism.
beloved57
Well-known member
Did you read and understand the points made in the post you quoted ?
''Always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that is in you'', but you never do. That is because your hope is in theology and not Theos.
beloved57
Well-known member
Evasion of points I made!
I posted a request for your testimony of salvation and you evaded the request. Same as you did last year and the year before. This is my annual request.
beloved57
Well-known member
Evasion and Rabbit trail ! If you dont care to debate the points I made in this thread, then just stay away !
As I said this is my annual request for you to give a testimony of salvation. You don't have one.
see you next year.
beloved57
Well-known member
Ok, you are not here to debate my points so i will holler at you later !
beloved57
Well-known member
Faith and Salvation/Justification ! 2
Faith and Salvation/Justification ! 2
More on what Justification by Faith means, instead of what the false teachers would have us to believe, that its a condition performed by the natural man in order for God to Justifiy him. That is a lie, yet Justification by Faith is a proper teaching of the scripture, for instance Rom 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Now Faith here can be Christ's Faith or Faithfulness whereby all for whom He died are Justified and have Peace with God by virtue of the fact that His Blood established for them Peace with God. Also Faith here can be that Faith which is the fruit of the Spirit in all the born again ones, wherein this fruit of Faith is the instrumental means whereby God declares to the conscience the fact that Christ by His Blood has Justified one before God, it gives evidence of that fact Heb 11:1 ! God through God given Faith enunciates to the consciences the forgiveness, discharge of our sins and condemnation through the blood of Christ, its a giving of the spiritual knowledge of the forgiveness of ones sins Lk 1:77
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
And this knowledge causes the forgiven one to grasp this fact intuitively.
The word knowledge is the greek word gnōsis and means:
I.knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding
It means:
1108 gnṓsis (a feminine noun derived from 1097 /ginṓskō, "experientially know") –
So Faith gives us the experiential knowledge of the forgiveness of sins/Justification, and thereby causes us to assent in this coming to know of our being free from guilt, our remission of sins through the blood of Christ alone Eph 1:7 ! By this we become Justified by Faith within our own consciousness, internal knowledge, and by this we find peace through believing !
Faith and Salvation/Justification ! 2
More on what Justification by Faith means, instead of what the false teachers would have us to believe, that its a condition performed by the natural man in order for God to Justifiy him. That is a lie, yet Justification by Faith is a proper teaching of the scripture, for instance Rom 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Now Faith here can be Christ's Faith or Faithfulness whereby all for whom He died are Justified and have Peace with God by virtue of the fact that His Blood established for them Peace with God. Also Faith here can be that Faith which is the fruit of the Spirit in all the born again ones, wherein this fruit of Faith is the instrumental means whereby God declares to the conscience the fact that Christ by His Blood has Justified one before God, it gives evidence of that fact Heb 11:1 ! God through God given Faith enunciates to the consciences the forgiveness, discharge of our sins and condemnation through the blood of Christ, its a giving of the spiritual knowledge of the forgiveness of ones sins Lk 1:77
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
And this knowledge causes the forgiven one to grasp this fact intuitively.
The word knowledge is the greek word gnōsis and means:
I.knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding
It means:
1108 gnṓsis (a feminine noun derived from 1097 /ginṓskō, "experientially know") –
So Faith gives us the experiential knowledge of the forgiveness of sins/Justification, and thereby causes us to assent in this coming to know of our being free from guilt, our remission of sins through the blood of Christ alone Eph 1:7 ! By this we become Justified by Faith within our own consciousness, internal knowledge, and by this we find peace through believing !
beloved57
Well-known member
Be careful with Faiths role in Salvation !
Be careful with Faiths role in Salvation !
Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Yes Faith has a prominent role in Salvation, but just not as an condition, but as an evidential blessing that accompanies Salvation, The writer of Hebrews writes of things that accompany Salvation Heb 6:9
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany[adjoining/attached, parts of] salvation, though we thus speak.
Faith is Part of the totality of the Salvation God saves us with, so it comes also as the Gift of God.
Now that is why Faith in the realm of Salvation is said to be " not of ourselves" it is the Gift of God, NOT of WORKS lest any man should boast, since no part of Salvation is of ourselves, then Faith, which comes with it, is not of ourselves. Now if we believe and teach that Faith is of ourselves, having it by nature, then we must by default to Salvation by works, something we did do of ourselves, which Eph 2:8-9 denies ! So Faith in the role of Salvation is either of ourseves making it a work, or its not of ourselves making it a Gift, worked in us by the power of the holy Spirit at our New Birth/Regeneration, when He saves us in Christ's Name and Salvation Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
So you see, If Faith/belief in the role of Salvation is of ourselves as many teach, then like it or not, that makes it Salvation by ones works and gives the occasion to boast, which boasting is evil James 4:16
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
Be careful with Faiths role in Salvation !
Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Yes Faith has a prominent role in Salvation, but just not as an condition, but as an evidential blessing that accompanies Salvation, The writer of Hebrews writes of things that accompany Salvation Heb 6:9
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany[adjoining/attached, parts of] salvation, though we thus speak.
Faith is Part of the totality of the Salvation God saves us with, so it comes also as the Gift of God.
Now that is why Faith in the realm of Salvation is said to be " not of ourselves" it is the Gift of God, NOT of WORKS lest any man should boast, since no part of Salvation is of ourselves, then Faith, which comes with it, is not of ourselves. Now if we believe and teach that Faith is of ourselves, having it by nature, then we must by default to Salvation by works, something we did do of ourselves, which Eph 2:8-9 denies ! So Faith in the role of Salvation is either of ourseves making it a work, or its not of ourselves making it a Gift, worked in us by the power of the holy Spirit at our New Birth/Regeneration, when He saves us in Christ's Name and Salvation Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
So you see, If Faith/belief in the role of Salvation is of ourselves as many teach, then like it or not, that makes it Salvation by ones works and gives the occasion to boast, which boasting is evil James 4:16
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
beloved57
Well-known member
The Faith of Gods Elect !
The Faith of Gods Elect !
All men dont have Faith, but its restricted to Gods Elect. 2 Thess 3:2
2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
This is not speaking of the natural mans faith in natural things that pertain naturally to this life, that faith has absolutely nothing to do with God and or the Things of God, the Truth/Truths of God, or Spiritual Things. The Faith that all men dont have is that Faith which is a fruit and gift of Gods Spirit Gal 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
given in New Birth or when one is born of the Spirit opposed to being born only of the flesh Jn 3:6-8
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
When we have Spirit produced Faith, its the Faith of Gods Elect Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
This Faith acknowledges the Truth of God in Gospel Obedience. One has to be of Gods Elect in order to receive Faith, or Election leads to Faith, for instance, Peter writes to Gods Elect this 1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Obedience here is synonymous to Faith, because Faith in Spiritual matters involves Obedience, its a trait of the Seed of Abraham, the Father of this Faith Heb 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Believing the Gospel is also called obedience of Faith Rom 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
This Obedience / Faith is the result of the Sanctifying Work of the Spirit from New Birth.
Again, that Election results in Faith is seen in 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Belief of the Truth here, which is Faith, is the same as obedience in 1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit,unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Now all men dont have this Faith/obedience, its given to Gods Elect in order for them to obey the Truth.
The Faith of Gods Elect !
All men dont have Faith, but its restricted to Gods Elect. 2 Thess 3:2
2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
This is not speaking of the natural mans faith in natural things that pertain naturally to this life, that faith has absolutely nothing to do with God and or the Things of God, the Truth/Truths of God, or Spiritual Things. The Faith that all men dont have is that Faith which is a fruit and gift of Gods Spirit Gal 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
given in New Birth or when one is born of the Spirit opposed to being born only of the flesh Jn 3:6-8
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
When we have Spirit produced Faith, its the Faith of Gods Elect Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
This Faith acknowledges the Truth of God in Gospel Obedience. One has to be of Gods Elect in order to receive Faith, or Election leads to Faith, for instance, Peter writes to Gods Elect this 1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Obedience here is synonymous to Faith, because Faith in Spiritual matters involves Obedience, its a trait of the Seed of Abraham, the Father of this Faith Heb 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Believing the Gospel is also called obedience of Faith Rom 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
This Obedience / Faith is the result of the Sanctifying Work of the Spirit from New Birth.
Again, that Election results in Faith is seen in 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Belief of the Truth here, which is Faith, is the same as obedience in 1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit,unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Now all men dont have this Faith/obedience, its given to Gods Elect in order for them to obey the Truth.