ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

[Cross Reference]

I'm not willing to follow your rabbit trail. If you have a point, make it.

Naah. You understand alright but are all talk when being faced with what the word "everything" means. When called upon to make personal application is when you are "not willing" because you knew it will cost you something you have never been willing to pay, i,e., your life....

 

[Danoh]

I'm not willing to follow your rabbit trail. If you have a point, make it.

You'd obviously meant a general heart attitude and all that follows from it.

In contrast; he is looking for a specific list of do's and don'ts he might then post "wrong!" on, or whatever.

Thus, his ever "you first" insistence.

CR, ever being...CR :chuckle:

 

[jsanford108]

Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

Man, mention Logic, point out contradictions and hypocritical arguments and those "Faith Alone" people come running with fire and a stake.

The excuses of "personal vacuum," "your argument is 'makes sense to me'," "that isn't in Scripture," etc just start flying. And, the famous Epistle of James gets dismissed in favor of Paul (who never used the words "faith alone"), choosing to recognize one verse over another, claiming it supports their doctrine, despite it never concisely doing so.

Just calm down guys. I will try to use my heart like Hosea advises in Hosea 10:2-12, rather than my mind and God-given intellect.

I will try harder next time, Danoh and Evil Eye.

Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Danoh]

Lol, look at the measure of time on both my post and CR's.

I was calling his very tactic even as he was writing it :chuckle:

 

[Danoh]

Man, mention Logic, point out contradictions and hypocritical arguments and those "Faith Alone" people come running with fire and a stake.

The excuses of "personal vacuum," "your argument is 'makes sense to me'," "that isn't in Scripture," etc just start flying. And, the famous Epistle of James gets dismissed in favor of Paul (who never used the words "faith alone"), choosing to recognize one verse over another, claiming it supports their doctrine, despite it never concisely doing so.

Just calm down guys. I will try not to use my heart like Hosea advises in Hosea 10:2-12, rather than my mind and God-given intellect.

I will try harder next time, Danoh and Evil Eye.

Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Lol.

And, just bring a sense of humour both towards yourself and others, as you read rebuttals to your "logic."

You'll be better off emotionally and spiritually, throughout

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Man, mention Logic, point out contradictions and hypocritical arguments and those "Faith Alone" people come running with fire and a stake.

The excuses of "personal vacuum," "your argument is 'makes sense to me'," "that isn't in Scripture," etc just start flying. And, the famous Epistle of James gets dismissed in favor of Paul (who never used the words "faith alone"), choosing to recognize one verse over another, claiming it supports their doctrine, despite it never concisely doing so.

Just calm down guys. I will try not to use my heart like Hosea advises in Hosea 10:2-12, rather than my mind and God-given intellect.

I will try harder next time, Danoh and Evil Eye.

Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Grinning... I know.. I can be "Evil". But... James himself likens his verbiage to a Sex Worker! Wouldn't this place it back to the faith alone category?

Let's check out Heb. 11:31 + James 2:25 ... they bring it right back to Faith alone and it all comes back to Eph. 2:8f. Paul and James are in agreement... but scriptural searching is required.

Heart Mind and Soul welcome...

Abuse of the verbiage of James? Well... If you still do... I've got more coming.

You know I think you're awesome... but... I can't let the Gospel become "works based". It's faith... by faith.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I'm not the slightest bit surprised that you would ask that question.

BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!


You are the single most SELF-RIGHTEOUS person on TOL.

And honestly... that's a difficult title to obtain. Between the JW's and the Hyper Calvies... it takes something extra special to rise to the top!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Naah. You understand alright but are all talk when being faced with what the word "everything" means. When called upon to make personal application is when you are "not willing" because you knew it will cost you something you have never been willing to pay, i,e., your life....

Tell us CR... what does Salvation cost a man?

[MENTION=13491]Cross Reference[/MENTION]

Editing in...

Let's see what Oswald chambers has to say on the matter...

The salvation that comes from God is not based on human logic, but on the sacrificial death of Jesus. We can be born again solely because of the atonement of our Lord. Sinful men and women can be changed into new creations, not through their repentance or their belief, but through the wonderful work of God in Christ Jesus which preceded all of our experience (see 2 Corinthians 5:17-19). The unconquerable safety of justification and sanctification is God Himself. We do not have to accomplish these things ourselves— they have been accomplished through the atonement of the Cross of Christ. The supernatural becomes natural to us through the miracle of God, and there is the realization of what Jesus Christ has already done— “It is finished!” (John 19:30).

Quoted from here... Link to Utmost.Org

Yup

Editing in more quotation from Mr. Chambers

"When I turn to God and by belief accept what God reveals, the miraculous atonement by the Cross of Christ instantly places me into a right relationship with God. And as a result of the supernatural miracle of God’s grace I stand justified, not because I am sorry for my sin, or because I have repented, but because of what Jesus has done. "

 

[Danoh]

Tell us CR... what does Salvation cost a man?

You first :chuckle:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Free Drinks in spoiler

Free Drinks in spoiler

You first :chuckle:

Well... it's rather difficult... you have to multiply the cost of free times 77.

The resulting number is factored into admission of utter need for Christ.. and then... it all goes back to that free thing.

Spoiler

A man walks into a a bar, drinks a couple of beers, and prepares to leave. The bartender tells him he owes $8.

"But I already paid you. Don't you remember?" says the customer.

"OK," says the bartender, "if you say you paid, then I suppose you did."

The man goes outside and tells the first person he sees that the bartender can't keep track of whether his customers have paid or not. The second man rushes in, orders a couple beers, and later pulls the same stunt.

The barkeep replies, "OK, if you say you paid, then I suppose you did."

The customer goes outside and tells a friend how to get free drinks. The third man hurries into the bar and begins to drink highballs.

The bartender leans over and says, "You know, a funny thing happened tonight. Two men were drinking beer, neither paid, and both claimed they had. The next guy who tries that stunt is going to get punched in the -- "

The man interrupts, "Don't bother me with your troubles, bartender. Just give me my change and I'll be on my way."

 

[glorydaz]

Logic is what proves God exists! A dismissing of logic is a dismissing of reason. A dismissing of facts and evidence.

Really? Logic you say is what proves God exists...through facts and evidence. Does logic prove the worlds were framed by the word of God?

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.​

Also, you contradicted yourself. If there is one unforgivable sin, then Christ did not die for all sin. "All" by definition is completely inclusive. Any exception breaks the rule, rendering it false. I can't say "God is all knowing," and follow it with "except about this one thing...." That means He couldn't be "all-knowing." You would agree that Christ/God cannot contradict Himself, right? So saying "He died for all sins and paid the price for all" is contradictory to "there is one sin that is unforgivable." It is also contradictory to Hell's purpose. If Christ cannot contradict Himself, the error must lie in the doctrine and rationale put forth.

That would seem logical, I suppose. Perhaps a visual would help. Mankind is locked up in a prison cell of sin. When Christ died, He unlocked the door. Those who see and believe can walk right out the door and find life. So unbelief is a sin a person hangs onto in spite of our Lord's work on the cross.

Simply dismissing logic because it obliterates your point does not render the logic false. It renders your argument false. And, not trying to sound demeaning, but it shows you grasping to an illogical doctrine, which begs and prefers ignorance rather than knowledge.

Well, call it ignorance if you like. Tell me this, are you in unbelief? The door is wide open.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Again, what is "everything" in your mental economy, . . . . going to church? What is God looking for from you? Perhaps you haven't given it much thought and need to think about it?

Did I ever tell you that I grew up from the ages of 13 to 17 with a leather bound copy of My Utmost for his Highest? You do realize that Oswald is a severe and unquestionably relentless Salvation by faith... alone advocate... right?

 

[glorydaz]

How can we tell the difference in a "Christian"? Should 'we' even look for a difference in him? Should it even matter to us?

We need to know the wolves in sheep's clothing. False brethren need to be outed.

While this is true if nominalism is OK with God. However, it isn't His goal when saving a person and can't be for His reasons summed up in Christ Jesus. This makes a 'completed' salvation conditional which requires a new birth in Him that can only make it happen, a new birth not necessarilly administered at the time of one's 'initial' salvation.

A person is saved or they aren't. We only wait for the redemption of our body.

Only if that one understands what the issues are to have cultivated his love TO God sufficient for overcoming the "law" of his flesh.

Made up.

Temptations are for testing one's allegiance to God. Jesus demonstrated that to be true. Satan is allowed to tempt us to reveal to us that which he still owns in us God wants overcome. In Jesus, he found nothing to censor, nothing to "rectify", nothing needed for Jesus to repent of.. What does he find in me? . . . in you?

The results of an active imagination.

What is needed for the "overcoming"?

Faith in the One who overcame the world.

Faith for what, something magical to happen and one is delivered; released from that specific temptation? You don't mention "overcoming". Why?

Because I rest in the One who overcame.

We are?? Whose is "we" if "we" doesn't understand that it requires seeking to know Him as Jesus knew Him? Certainly there is a price to pay for that relationship, correct? [cf John 17:3].

Our Lord paid the price.

Peter took his eyes off the object of his affection and placed it upon 'saving' his own flesh, thus temporarilly thwarting God's will for his life. Fortunately, God did not give up on him.

Peter looked at his circumstances instead of trusting the Lord.

I somehow feel there is another lesson in this for the born again Christian who sins or has a secret sin only He and God know about or perhaps simply an sin unrepented of that which seperates [puts to death] his intimacy with God.

You'd do well to stop doubting what the Lord did for you on the cross and keep your eye fixed on Him.

And the "Comforter", whom Jesus said He would send, where does He fit in? Do you think a nominal Christian [or even the born again] knows about Him and His purpose for being sent by God after Jesus ascended?

My goodness! The Holy Spirit gives us understanding through the Scripture.

OMT Lest I forget to ask: I assume you say the Lords Prayer from time to time, as most do when the occasion suggests. Have you ever really paid attention to the words Jesus taught His "Disciples" to say? What did you come up with in your understanding?

Thank you

I don't recite the Lord's prayer...He was giving an example of how to pray.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I will try not to use my heart like Hosea advises in Hosea 10:2-12, rather than my mind and God-given intellect.

Paul certainly based what he taught on what a person can understand by them using their God-given intellect:

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures" (Acts 17:2).​

If you base your beliefs on the feelings which come from your heart consider what is said here:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer.17:9).​

Man, mention Logic, point out contradictions and hypocritical arguments and those "Faith Alone" people come running with fire and a stake.

You are making a huge mistake if you abandon your reason and logic. The LORD Himself said:

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool" (Isa.1:18).​

Those who base their beliefs on their feeling which come from their hearts are spoken of here:

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Prov.16:5).​

 

[dodge]

Paul certainly based what he taught on what a person can understand by them using their God-given intellect:

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures" (Acts 17:2).​

If you base your beliefs on the feelings which come from your heart consider what is said here:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer.17:9).​

You are making a huge mistake if you abandon your reason and logic. The LORD Himself said:

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool" (Isa.1:18).​

Those who base their beliefs on their feeling which come from their hearts are spoken of here:

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Prov.16:5).​

1Co 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1Co 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

[Right Divider]

1Co 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1Co 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Scripture ping pong... wonderful.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1Co 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1Co 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

So? No one disputed that. We are to "reason out of the Scriptures."

The wisdom of God is found in the Scriptures.

 

[dodge]

So? No one disputed that. We are to "reason out of the Scriptures."

The wisdom of God is found in the Scriptures.

Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
Paul certainly based what he taught on what a person can understand by them using their God-given intellect:


The power of the gospel supersedes man's intellect ! A person's intellect is immaterial !

 

[jsanford108]

Grinning... I know.. I can be "Evil". But... James himself likens his verbiage to a Sex Worker! Wouldn't this place it back to the faith alone category?

Let's check out Heb. 11:31 + James 2:25 ... they bring it right back to Faith alone and it all comes back to Eph. 2:8f. Paul and James are in agreement... but scriptural searching is required.

Heart Mind and Soul welcome...

Abuse of the verbiage of James? Well... If you still do... I've got more coming.

You know I think you're awesome... but... I can't let the Gospel become "works based". It's faith... by faith.

Evil Eye, I do enjoy all your posts. Even if I disagree, I think you are quite structured for the most part.




Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[jsanford108]

Really? Logic you say is what proves God exists...through facts and evidence. Does logic prove the worlds were framed by the word of God?

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.​

That would seem logical, I suppose. Perhaps a visual would help. Mankind is locked up in a prison cell of sin. When Christ died, He unlocked the door. Those who see and believe can walk right out the door and find life. So unbelief is a sin a person hangs onto in spite of our Lord's work on the cross.



Well, call it ignorance if you like. Tell me this, are you in unbelief? The door is wide open.

Hello friend,

I do assert that logic proves God formed the worlds. In fact, logic and reason lead, through and with evidence, to God creating and sustaining the universe.

As for your visual analogy, is remaining in the prison, having heard the door was open, a sin? If so, then it once again proves my original statement.

(If you want to know more about reason/logic pointing to God creating the heavens and the earth ((and all things therein)) I will happily make a post about it. I have a lot of scientific evidence to defend my position, much to the annoyance and dismay of atheists)


Sent from my iPhone using TOL