ECT EXPANDING GAL 1:15 !!

Interplanner

Well-known member
Good post Dan


But you have to be precise here. It WAS known everywhere in Judaism that the nations were to be reached. But the mistake of Judaism was to think it was through the Law, not the Gospel. That's why 3:5's grammar makes everything fall on 'dia tou euangeliou' That is the difference. It is abundantly clear from all Scripture since Gen 3 that all men would be offered a message that justified from sins.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
So really, the church started when any OT person believed on the salvation that was coming, even in such expressions as 'he will crush your head' or 'I have delivered a man--the LORD' in early Genesis. Abraham saw Christ's work. That's why Heb 11 unifies us with all of them, not dispensates us from them.
 

Danoh

New member
But you have to be precise here. It WAS known everywhere in Judaism that the nations were to be reached. But the mistake of Judaism was to think it was through the Law, not the Gospel. That's why 3:5's grammar makes everything fall on 'dia tou euangeliou' That is the difference. It is abundantly clear from all Scripture since Gen 3 that all men would be offered a message that justified from sins.

THAT was known. But THAT was NOT what THE Myster WAS.

Thus, Judaism was NOT wrong as to WHAT IT had thought as to HOW THAT would play out, as you often assert, and wrongly EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Isaiah is clear that Judaism was right as to its conclusion about the LAW's role in this:

Spoiler



Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 An many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

That is MESSIANIC Judaism.

What did IT's Messiah say?

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"...the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees" - what's that?

Oh wait, that is Matthew 5. That is early in His ministry. Nope.

Even shortly before His death, HE COMMANDS them ALL how that as to THE LAW in the following...

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

And lest some book writer come along and twist that as NOT being a reference to THEIR CONTINUING IN the Law... we also read THAT FAR into Matthew...

Matthew 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

What - is the Lord also one of your "got it wrong" Jews?

Why is He still not only emphasizing the Law; but the proper heart attitude, including even when they bring "the gift" or ANIMAL SACRIFICE?

While, back in Matthew 5, where He was laying out their coming Kingdom life, we not only read...

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

But ALSO...

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

That's right - the CONTINUANCE of ANIMAL SACRIFICES IN their coming Millenial kingdom.

NONE OF THIS is THE Mystery.

You see this here...

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

THAT IS this here...

Luke 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

That is what this that follows was actually about...

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The Twelve had understood the order of all, but not it's timing.

Which was why right after this...

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

We read this...

1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Because Isaiah had Prophesied...

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

The Twelve had forgotten this...

Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Though it is Matthew 10, it reads like Matthew 24.

With good reason. For it is AFTER His return that they (or rather their number multiplied to 144,OOO just like them) continue beyond the cities of Israel...

The timing is this...

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

What did He tell them in Matthew 10?

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Its the same in Matthew 24...their enduring unto the end of the Great Tribulation, followed by His return, and this gospel of the kingdom THEN going past the cities of Israel DURING His Millennial "reign til he hath made his enemies his footstool"

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

First this...

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

That takes place when He returns. Those of them who endure shall be saved into His coming Kingdom at His return.

After which this OTHER end jumpstarts...

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This is similar - in a way - to how Rome graduallt became a power the increase of its government of which it then continued to expand as it subdued more and more of its enemies...

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It makes sense then, that Paul mentions an aspect of THE Mystery he ALONE preached - he mentions said aspect ONLY AFTER he reminds the Corinthians of the above's DELAY.

This is more than one or two passages in Romans 11....

 

patrick jane

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Banned
So really, the church started when any OT person believed on the salvation that was coming, even in such expressions as 'he will crush your head' or 'I have delivered a man--the LORD' in early Genesis. Abraham saw Christ's work. That's why Heb 11 unifies us with all of them, not dispensates us from them.

THAT was known. But THAT was NOT what WAS THE Mystery.

Thus, Judaism was NOT wrong as to WHAT IT had thought as to HOW THAT would play out, as you often assert, and wrongly EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Isaiah is clear that Judaism was right as to its conclusion about the LAW's role in this:

Spoiler



Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 An many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

That is MESSIANIC Judaism.

What did IT's Messiah say?

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"...the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees" - what's that?

Oh wait, that is Matthew 5. That is early in His ministry. Nope.

Even shortly before His death, HE COMMANDS them ALL how that as to THE LAW in the following...

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

And lest some book writer come along and twist that as NOT being a reference to THEIR CONTINUING IN the Law... we also read THAT FAR into Matthew...

Matthew 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

What - is the Lord also one of your "got it wrong" Jews?

Why is He still not only emphasizing the Law; but the proper heart attitude, including even when they bring "the gift" or ANIMAL SACRIFICE?

While, back in Matthew 5, where He was laying out their coming Kingdom life, we not only read...

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

But ALSO...

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

That's right - the CONTINUANCE of ANIMAL SACRIFICES IN their coming Millenial kingdom.

NONE OF THIS is THE Mystery.

You see this here...

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

THAT IS this here...

Luke 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

That is what this that follows was actually about...

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The Twelve had understood the order of all, but not it's timing.

Which was why right after this...

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

We read this...

1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Because Isaiah had Prophesied...

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

The Twelve had forgotten this...

Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Though it is Matthew 10, it reads like Matthew 24.

With good reason. For it is AFTER His return that they (or rather their number multiplied to 144,OOO just like them) continue beyond the cities of Israel...

The timing is this...

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

What did He tell them in Matthew 10?

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Its the same in Matthew 24...their enduring unto the end of the Great Tribulation, followed by His return, and this gospel of the kingdom THEN going past the cities of Israel DURING His Millennial "reign til he hath made his enemies his footstool"

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

First this...

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

That takes place when He returns. Those of them who endure shall be saved into His coming Kingdom at His return.

After which this OTHER end jumpstarts...

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This is similar - in a way - to how Rome graduallt became a power the increase of its government of which it then continued to expand as it subdued more and more of its enemies...

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It makes sense then, that Paul mentions an aspect of THE Mystery he ALONE preached - he mentions said aspect ONLY AFTER he reminds the Corinthians of the above's DELAY.

This is more than one or two passages in Romans 11....


You kill discussions with your long inane posts

Isaiah 43:25 KJV -
 

patrick jane

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Thank you.
I notice you never offer answers, you create more questions (seemingly), even when you agree there's a caveat


Have you ever tried to summarize or get to the point ? have you ever given a straight answer without directing somebody to read something else ? NO is the answer to that question. Try harder
 

patrick jane

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Danoh . try direct answers to specific questions/issues. Try answering directly and stick to a point. Stop leading folks away from the point. You know what I mean because you know what you do
 

Danoh

New member
I notice you never offer answers, you create more questions (seemingly), even when you agree there's a caveat


Have you ever tried to summarize or get to the point ? have you ever given a straight answer without directing somebody to read something else ? NO is the answer to that question. Try harder

Too much time in Scripture, I guess.

Both the Lord and Paul have that same habit - they often generate more questions with their answers.

Personally, I've always enjoyed that challenge.

Ask the likes of my few "friends" on here. You'll find they too are always left with questions by the Scripture, that they are then challenged by to seek out the answers to, to their delight each time.
 

Danoh

New member
Back when I was in martial arts it was the same way not only throughout my training, but later, during instructor's training - leaving someone with questions was highly prized over that of giving the students the answers...
 

ClimateSanity

New member
Danoh . try direct answers to specific questions/issues. Try answering directly and stick to a point. Stop leading folks away from the point. You know what I mean because you know what you do

He wants people to learn themselves and not be spoon-fed by what I gather. Why would anyone be happy with indoctrination?
 

patrick jane

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Banned
Back when I was in martial arts it was the same way not only throughout my training, but later, during instructor's training - leaving someone with questions was highly prized over that of giving the students the answers...
I don't care what color your belts are - The Problem With Karate - I can take you - Even with your belt and the looks that make movie stars laud you. You do a disservice to TOL by not answering. You like to say that Paul did it and your dojo did it, so it must be ok. Paul explains everything, and I mean everything. Paul didn't leave a few pieces of information out, and he didn't direct folks to another book. You lack directness as you enjoy floating around in scripture.


View attachment 23602
 

Danoh

New member
I don't care what color your belts are - The Problem With Karate - I can take you - Even with your belt and the looks that make movie stars laud you. You do a disservice to TOL by not answering. You like to say that Paul did it and your dojo did it, so it must be ok. Paul explains everything, and I mean everything. Paul didn't leave a few pieces of information out, and he didn't direct folks to another book. You lack directness as you enjoy floating around in scripture.

You twist my every word, anecdote, etc. This is a personal issue of yours.

I never have seen you as a fan of my posts. Project what you will. I'm done with this fool "conversation." I doubt your real issue serves this thread. Derail away on your own...again, thank you. Have the last, ur, latest word, lol
 

Tambora

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Back when I was in martial arts it was the same way not only throughout my training, but later, during instructor's training - leaving someone with questions was highly prized over that of giving the students the answers...
I have heard it said that understanding the question is of more benefit than knowing the answer.
 

patrick jane

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Banned
You twist my every word, anecdote, etc. This is a personal issue of yours.

I never have seen you as a fan of my posts. Project what you will. I'm done with this fool "conversation." I doubt your real issue serves this thread. Derail away on your own...again, thank you. Have the last, ur, latest word, lol
I wasn't going to reply because you goaded me to. The fact remains that you are aloof, you thrive on it. You never give a straight answer and if you do there's more to understand. You are a self proclaimed genius of the Bible, there's nothing you don't know, on the surface. Then you delve into previous conversations and readings. The result is you can't be taken seriously, if you don't believe me ask the MAD's here
 
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