ELECT Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God

[7djengo7]

I make faith a gift, given to those whom God makes alive. God only makes alive those whom He has adopted.
Why do I do this?
Because God tells us in Ephesians 1 and 2.
Jengy, your fight is with God, not me.

I get that you make faith a gift. We all get that, MennoSota. And, we get that you have to make faith a gift, seeing as how Ephesians, as well as the rest of Scripture, never makes faith a gift.

As I said, previously, you make faith to be conditioned upon adoption. You have just now, in post #80, done so, in confirmation of what I said. You are saying that adoption is prior to faith, and thus, you are contradicting both of the "views on the golden chain of redemption" given by Ask Mr. Religion (which I quoted, in post #75), both of which have faith as prior to adoption.

You are saying that, in order to have faith, one must first be "made alive", and that, in order to be "made alive", one must first be adopted; that is nothing other than to make faith to be conditioned upon adoption.

 

[MennoSota]

I get that you make faith a gift. We all get that, MennoSota. And, we get that you have to make faith a gift, seeing as how Ephesians, as well as the rest of Scripture, never makes faith a gift.

As I said, previously, you make faith to be conditioned upon adoption. You have just now, in post #80, done so, in confirmation of what I said. You are saying that adoption is prior to faith, and thus, you are contradicting both of the "views on the golden chain of redemption" given by Ask Mr. Religion (which I quoted, in post #75), both of which have faith as prior to adoption.

You are saying that, in order to have faith, one must first be "made alive", and that, in order to be "made alive", one must first be adopted; that is nothing other than to make faith to be conditioned upon adoption.

Ephesians and all of scripture make faith a gift from God not from men. Jengy...you have nothing you can boast in. Is that why you are such a hater of Reformed theology? You aren't the ruler and that is something you hate. You cannot accept it so you deny God his word when He tells you that faith is His gift to the elect.

 

[Rosenritter]

Thanks for the clear and cogent analysis, man! It's amazing just how much explanatory power there is in setting a font in bold.

Would you call what you wrote--"You don't understand why that is a loaded question?"--a "loaded question"? If so, why? If not, why not?

Boldface is a powerful tool.

And no, not exactly. It's fairly common to use that rhetorical framing to express disbelief or exasperation (your example was almost textbook format, like the "why do you spit upon your wife" example earlier.) Unlike the former "Why do you spit upon... " formulat answering my question doesn't presuppose guilt. For example, the common response would be:

a) No, I do not understand that as a loaded question, because...
b) Yes, I understand that was a loaded question,
c) What's a loaded question?

If if doesn't have reasonable possibility to be constructive and an attempt to acknowledge the question presupposes guilt and/or starts a fight, that's a good indicator that it might be a loaded question.

 

[Rosenritter]

Making it red is cool, too. But, it's still a loaded question.....like this one. :chuckle:

Glory has trouble with grammar and definitions (she does not understand the meaning of the " mark, for example.) The example she gave is not a loaded question, because the answer of "No" would dispel it entirely.

"So you are saying that Jesus FAILED, that his being crucified was a FAILURE and a MISTAKE that prevented him from accomplishing his gospel? That he had to put this off until later???"

a) Yes, Jesus failed his mission (but insert excuse or explanation)
b) No, Jesus did not fail his mission (but insert excuse or explanation)

Answering the question itself with yes or no presupposes no guilt. See the already-given definition of "loaded question."

A loaded question or complex question fallacy is a question that contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt).^[1]

For bonus credit, here's a version that would be a loaded question:

"Glory, when are you going to stop preaching that Jesus failed his mission?"

Do you see the difference? The former (original) version stated the scenario and asked for a confirmation or denial. The second presupposed a position and assigned it Glory, and answering the question presupposed guilt of the assumption.

 

[Rosenritter]

There is no "ability" God is granting. You still are attempting to make saving faith a human ability. No human has the ability. No human can conjure up saving faith...not even the elect. Why? Because spiritually dead people cannot will any spiritual thing to happen. God must do it all.
God chooses to cause faith to exist in the person's He chooses to make alive in Christ. The effect of this work of God is that these humans repent.
You will never understand as long as you demand that humans are the cause agents of faith rather than God being the cause agent of faith.

You are still equivocating. I never said anything about "saving faith" being a "human ability" because I was still speaking within the Calvinist framework of it being a "gift" that God "grants." Under that system, election saves, not intelligence or knowledge, correct? And the other casualty is that it is God's fault that everyone else has no faith (for who else could grant it?)

 

[Rosenritter]

Ephesians and all of scripture make faith a gift from God not from men. Jengy...you have nothing you can boast in. Is that why you are such a hater of Reformed theology? You aren't the ruler and that is something you hate. You cannot accept it so you deny God his word when He tells you that faith is His gift to the elect.

Grace is the gift of God Mennosota. Not faith.

Mark 4:39-40 KJV
(39) And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
(40) And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

Luke 7:9 KJV
(9) When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

2 Timothy 2:16-18 KJV
(16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
(17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
(18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[Idolater]

Ephesians and all of scripture make faith a gift from God not from men.

I don't know Clavinism like how those who never were convinced by it 'know' it. They never believed it, especially once they learned more about the tenets of Clavinism. So I'm not offering the following comment as one who didn't believe at one point that Clavinism is the truth of God.

It was my understanding that faith is a gift indirectly. The Spirit when He regenerates one of the Elect, enables that person to exercise faith, and that person will always do so, once regenerated. So it was in this way that faith is a gift, because without the Spirit's irresistible regeneration, we would never have faith, because we are Totally Unable to do so, before God the Spirit's Irresistible regeneration of us Unconditionally Elect people.

 

[MennoSota]

I don't know Clavinism like how those who never were convinced by it 'know' it. They never believed it, especially once they learned more about the tenets of Clavinism. So I'm not offering the following comment as one who didn't believe at one point that Clavinism is the truth of God.

It was my understanding that faith is a gift indirectly. The Spirit when He regenerates one of the Elect, enables that person to exercise faith, and that person will always do so, once regenerated. So it was in this way that faith is a gift, because without the Spirit's irresistible regeneration, we would never have faith, because we are Totally Unable to do so, before God the Spirit's Irresistible regeneration of us Unconditionally Elect people.

What does the Bible tell us? That is where we go to understand what God has declared.
Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

God is very clear. Faith is God's gift to those whom He has chosen to make alive in Christ.
John Calvin simply wrote down what he observed in the Bible. It baffles me how people hate the observations that he made. Ultimately, the hatred toward Calvin is really a hatred that God actually said what He said and thus humans are not and cannot remain on the throne in their life.
It seems that humans are openly in rebellion toward God...while they claim to be followers of that same God. People outright refuse to acknowledge God's Sovereign authority and demand that God merely be their side-kick consultant in their lives.

 

[Idolater]

What does the Bible tell us? That is where we go to understand what God has declared.
Ephesians 2:8-9

God is very clear. Faith is God's gift to those whom He has chosen to make alive in Christ.

Some say that 'gift' there applies to either 'grace,' or to our salvation, rather than to faith. If that scripture were unequivocal, then there'd be no disagreement about what it's saying. And as I said, as a Clavinist, I understood it to mean that faith is a gift because what is required in order to exercise faith is supplied freely by God, by grace, upon those whom He Unconditionally elected, from the foundation of the world. Since all those so enabled, will believe/exercise faith, in this sense faith is a gift, because without the enabling regeneration of the Spirit, we would not believe.

For me, when Paul is talking about a free gift, it reminds me of Romans 5:15-18 KJV and the surrounding context; comparing Scripture with Scripture. There, Paul says that the 'gift' is the atonement, salvation, and righteousness. All of this is 'by grace' and 'by faith,' and so there isn't any real contradiction, so long as what is meant by faith being a gift is understood to not conflict with the atonement, righteousness, and eternal salvation specifically being a free gift.

John Calvin simply wrote down what he observed in the Bible.

He had a bone to pick with the papacy and with the college of bishops though. All the Reformers did, and their theology is void of any authoritative teaching on the Church's clergy, which is an Apostolically instituted system of pastorates.

It baffles me how people hate the observations that he made. Ultimately, the hatred toward Calvin is really a hatred that God actually said what He said and thus humans are not and cannot remain on the throne in their life.

I don't think that any faithful Catholic believes that humans are on any throne.

It seems that humans are openly in rebellion toward God...while they claim to be followers of that same God. People outright refuse to acknowledge God's Sovereign authority and demand that God merely be their side-kick consultant in their lives.

God sovereignly permitted what is today known as the Catholic Church, to spread throughout the whole world. The Catholic Church has been preaching the Gospel from day one, without interruption. She is the Church spoken of in the New Testament. All that's left is to examine the theology, and being Reformed, as I was, you're going to be most interested in her treatment of God's sovereignty and the problem of evil. She treats both these matters skillfully and in a way that satisfies all my requirements for ensuring that all glory is God's.

 

[steko]

'saved' is the gift which is received by our believing it...faith. Our believing it comes about by the accumulation of the evidence provided by GOD's revelation of His existence thru the general revelation of nature and then thru His special revelation of Christ thru Scripture. We choose to believe it or reject it. It's up to us believers as Christ's ambassadors to present these truths to unbelievers in such a way so that they can make their choice.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[MennoSota]

'saved' is the gift which is received by our believing it...faith. Our believing it comes about by the accumulation of the evidence provided by GOD's revelation of His existence thru the general revelation of nature and then thru His special revelation of Christ thru Scripture. We choose to believe it or reject it. It's up to us believers as Christ's ambassadors to present these truths to unbelievers in such a way so that they can make their choice.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"It" is a gift from God.
The word "it" is referring to faith.
God's grace (unmerited favor) made us alive and gave us the gift of faith, which is our salvation.
It's ALL God's doing.
We do not, will not and cannot conjure up human feelings of belief (faith) that somehow merits God's salvation.

 

[Rosenritter]

"It" is a gift from God.
The word "it" is referring to faith.
God's grace (unmerited favor) made us alive and gave us the gift of faith, which is our salvation.
It's ALL God's doing.
We do not, will not and cannot conjure up human feelings of belief (faith) that somehow merits God's salvation.

Your theology seems to be entirely pinned on a twisted "maybe" interpretation of one scripture. On the other hand, there is no question that grace is the gift of God, this is true by definition.

 

[steko]

"It" is a gift from God.
The word "it" is referring to faith.
God's grace (unmerited favor) made us alive and gave us the gift of faith, which is our salvation.
It's ALL God's doing.
We do not, will not and cannot conjure up human feelings of belief (faith) that somehow merits God's salvation.

You're right about one thing....our faith does not merit salvation.

Our faith is merely trust in what Christ did for us on the cross for our justification before GOD.
Our faith is merely the empty hands of a beggar receiving the free gift of salvation, no merit involved.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

What good are ambassadors beseeching the unbeliever to be reconciled to GOD if the unbelievers cannot choose to be reconciled?

 

[MennoSota]

You're right about one thing....our faith does not merit salvation.

Our faith is merely trust in what Christ did for us on the cross for our justification before GOD.
Our faith is merely the empty hands of a beggar receiving the free gift of salvation, no merit involved.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

What good are ambassadors beseeching the unbeliever to be reconciled to GOD if the unbelievers cannot choose to be reconciled?

Indeed. But God does not place His gift on a corner and then leave it for anyone who happens upon it and then rips open the unmarked gift to get the prize. (And that is what you are implying.)
God writes the name of each recipient on the gift (God did this before the foundation of the world. See Ephesians 1 and Romans 8) God then gives life to that specific recipient, in Christ (see Ephesians 2) and specifically gives that person God's very personal gift of faith.
This is a very personal expression of love, given graciously, to people whom God has chosen.
This is not a cheap dumping of a gift, on the corner, in hopes that someone might happen to discover it, as you make it out to be.

 

[glorydaz]

Glory has trouble with grammar and definitions (she does not understand the meaning of the " mark, for example.) The example she gave is not a loaded question, because the answer of "No" would dispel it entirely.

Here she goes assuming she knows me. :chuckle:

When, in fact, I looked for the first place I could drop a quote from this particular little smarty pants for all to see.
Ain't she a gem?

For bonus credit,

Watch her run to report this "weaponized threat", as she calls them. :baby:

 

[glorydaz]

If if doesn't have reasonable possibility to be constructive and an attempt to acknowledge the question presupposes guilt and/or starts a fight, that's a good indicator that it might be a loaded question.

So you are saying that Jesus FAILED, that his being crucified was a FAILURE and a MISTAKE that prevented him from accomplishing his gospel? That he had to put this off until later??? :bang:

opcorn:

 

[7djengo7]

Boldface is a powerful tool.

And no, not exactly. It's fairly common to use that rhetorical framing to express disbelief or exasperation (your example was almost textbook format, like the "why do you spit upon your wife" example earlier.) Unlike the former "Why do you spit upon... " formulat answering my question doesn't presuppose guilt. For example, the common response would be:

a) No, I do not understand that as a loaded question, because...
b) Yes, I understand that was a loaded question,
c) What's a loaded question?

If if doesn't have reasonable possibility to be constructive and an attempt to acknowledge the question presupposes guilt and/or starts a fight, that's a good indicator that it might be a loaded question.

The phrase "reasonable possibility" is gobbledygook.

Constructive? As defined by whom?

Neither questions, nor attempts to acknowledge questions, presuppose things; only people presuppose things. So, neither questions, nor attempts to acknowledge questions, presuppose guilt; it's people who presuppose guilt. Similarly, neither questions, nor attempts to acknowledge questions start fights; only people start fights.

When a man has stolen a pair of shoes, would you say that it is fallacious to ask him, "Why did you steal those shoes?" After all, to ask him that involves presupposing his guilt, to which he is likely not going to want to confess, and it could even lead to a fight.

 

[Winston Smith]

I don't really know. Can you say? Thanks.

 

[Winston Smith]

Your statement would only be true under certain theological view assumptions.

1) I think that would be false from the Calvinist viewpoint, where salvation is not a matter of the heart of the person or their intelligence, but merely whether one is selected from before they were ever created for salvation. All others are denied the ability to repent or exercise faith.

2) I believe that might be true from certain other viewpoints, that view salvation as a matter of knowing or believing certain "facts." Gnosticism or certain of those that argue that one must "believe" a certain "statement of beliefs" might need to answer this charge further.

3) I understand your statement to be incorrect, in that no one is "burned" for lacking intelligence of knowledge, as any lack of intelligence or mental ability or understanding can easily be fixed by God when a person stands before Him in judgment. We are told that we are judged by how we respond to what we are given, and that to him that has been shown much much is expected. In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Christ gladly redeems those who were without knowledge of him yet who had the heart of love towards others: these "sheep" are of the heart that also gladly accept Christ when they find Him.

In that case, everyone gets into Heaven?

 

[MennoSota]

Your theology seems to be entirely pinned on a twisted "maybe" interpretation of one scripture. On the other hand, there is no question that grace is the gift of God, this is true by definition.

Grace is an unmerited favor. It is not the gift described in Ephesians 2:8-9. Faith is the gift God gives to those He makes alive in Christ.
Do you want to brag about your faith that you conjured up? Is that why you cannot accept faith as God's gracious gift?