ELECT Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God

[7djengo7]

Ephesians and all of scripture make faith a gift from God not from men. Jengy...you have nothing you can boast in. Is that why you are such a hater of Reformed theology? You aren't the ruler and that is something you hate. You cannot accept it so you deny God his word when He tells you that faith is His gift to the elect.

You're right, man! I have nothing worth boasting in. But, that's not why I hate Reformed theology. I am such a hater of Reformed theology because I hate falsehood, irrationalism, and hypocrisy, and because I believe in justification through faith, which is denied by Reformed theology hucksters, like yourself, and beloved57. You believe that people are justified and propitiated prior to conversion--that is, prior to faith. To believe that is to deny that justification is through faith, which you do deny. You make faith to be conditioned upon justification and propitiation, so that only those, only, who are justified and propitiated can have faith.

Now, remember, you thanked beloved57 for denying that justification is through faith, when you thanked his post #30:

Impossible, since the elect are sinners God so Loved and Christ died for, and Christ is their propitiation, meaning He satisfied for them Gods law and Justice and reconciled them to God by His death Rom 5:10

Beloved57 (you can check for yourself) was reacting to the title I gave to this thread: ELECT Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God. He denies that God was ever angry at persons who are elect, even before these persons had faith. He affirms that persons who are elect were justified and propitiated prior to--that is, outside of--having faith. You specifically thanked him for that comment, so obviously you agree with him that justification and propitiation is prior to, and thus, outside of, faith. That is how you spit upon justification through faith.

AMR warned you not to agree with beloved57:

B57 is far from what one should consider orthodox Calvinism. He is a hyper-Calvinist, a position declared heretical by all conservative Reformed groups. He trolls many other sites with the same tactics and suffers the moderation duly dealt him.

 

[Rosenritter]

Indeed. But God does not place His gift on a corner and then leave it for anyone who happens upon it and then rips open the unmarked gift to get the prize. (And that is what you are implying.)
God writes the name of each recipient on the gift (God did this before the foundation of the world. See Ephesians 1 and Romans 8) God then gives life to that specific recipient, in Christ (see Ephesians 2) and specifically gives that person God's very personal gift of faith.
This is a very personal expression of love, given graciously, to people whom God has chosen.
This is not a cheap dumping of a gift, on the corner, in hopes that someone might happen to discover it, as you make it out to be.

This gift was announced with the dead being raised and the cross being preached, the sky went dark and the temple veil was rent. That's hardly being left in a corner.

 

[Rosenritter]

The phrase "reasonable possibility" is gobbledygook.

Constructive? As defined by whom?

Neither questions, nor attempts to acknowledge questions, presuppose things; only people presuppose things. So, neither questions, nor attempts to acknowledge questions, presuppose guilt; it's people who presuppose guilt. Similarly, neither questions, nor attempts to acknowledge questions start fights; only people start fights.

When a man has stolen a pair of shoes, would you say that it is fallacious to ask him, "Why did you steal those shoes?" After all, to ask him that involves presupposing his guilt, to which he is likely not going to want to confess, and it could even lead to a fight.

Perhaps an example would help? "Why do you continue to act like a dummy?" "Have you always been this incorrigible?" (See, those are examples.)

 

[Rosenritter]

In that case, everyone gets into Heaven?

Would would be able to show why one might arrive at that conclusion?

 

[Rosenritter]

Grace is an unmerited favor. It is not the gift described in Ephesians 2:8-9. Faith is the gift God gives to those He makes alive in Christ.
Do you want to brag about your faith that you conjured up? Is that why you cannot accept faith as God's gracious gift?

See, there's an example of a leading question.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

God only makes alive those whom He has adopted.

Brother, this is infelicitous at best, rank hyper-Calvinism's heretical eternal justification, at worst.

We don't call orphans "mine" unilaterally. Rather, based upon an prior procedural judicial reckoning, are we able to formally declare them "mine."

Those that are granted faith in the Object of said faith, Our Lord Jesus Christ, are forensically (judicially) declared justified by God. Formal adoption follows.

foreknowledge - God's love of His chosen (the elect) before time (Eph. 1:11).
predestination - God's sovereign eternal decree unto salvation as relates to the elect (Eph. 1:3-14).
calling - God's ordinary means, the hearing of the Scripture, the outward call, that effectuates the inward call of the elect (Eph. 2:1-3).
regeneration - the quickening of the "dead men walking" to life: new genesis, the beginning of a new life in a radically renewed person (1 Peter 1:23).
faith - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen - a vital and personal trust in Christ as Savior and Lord (Rom. 10:5-13).
repentance - the radical turning from sin to Christ, the fruit of regeneration (2 Cor. 7:8-12).
justification - a forensic act of God declaring, counting, reckoning those "in Christ" righteous (Phil. 3:7-11).
union to Christ - the joining of the regenerated (quickened) radically new person with Christ by God. The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God’s grace, whereby they are spiritually and mystically, yet really and inseparably, joined to Christ as their head and husband; which is done in their effectual calling. (Eph. 1:22; Eph. 2:6-8).
adoption - we are now related to Christ as branches of the True Vine, the children of God (John 15:1,5).
sanctification - our walk of faith towards greater destruction of the dominion of sin and the lusts thereof (Rom.6:6,14; Gal.5:24; Rom.8:13).
glorification - as we will be after the Lord's Second Coming (1 Cor. 15:53).

This golden chain of redemption can be seen in Romans 8:30:

"Moreover whom He predestined,
- Moreover carries forward Romans 8:29:

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. "
- God ordained those to be called from eternity—you cannot undo what God ordains. – They are predestined to be conformed—not to perhaps be conformed.

these He also called;
- The predestined were called, for they were foreknew and predestined—no wooing, pleading, etc. (Rom. 1:7; Romans 8:28)

whom He called, these He also justified;
- Justification of whom (the predestined) comes by faith;
- faith comes by re-birth, the quickening (regeneration) by the Spirit from spiritual death;
- the Spirit establishes the union;
- once so quickened the mind can know, assent and trust the truth of the Gospel—saving faith;
- from saving faith comes the recognition of one's wickedness and need for repentance;
- the justified are now one of the adopted (among the "many brethren" from Romans 8:29); and
- the adopted are "to be conformed" through the walk of sanctification, becoming masterpieces performing the good works God planned from eternity (Eph. 2:10).

and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
- The predestined, who were called, regenerated, joined with Christ, believed, repented, were justified, adopted, and sanctified, are now glorified (Romans 8:17).
- Indeed this glory has already begun, for the believer is raised with Christ (Col. 3:1), is in His train when He ascended (Eph. 4:8), and are being transformed from glory to glory (2 Cor. 3:18).
- Note the exclusive use of the past tense—glorified (cf. Jude 14; most of Isa. 53)—indicating a certainty that a future event will occur, and, in the present, the fact that the promised glory of the future has already begun.

AMR

 

[MennoSota]

Brother, this is infelicitous at best, rank hyper-Calvinism's heretical eternal justification, at worst.

We don't call orphans "mine" unilaterally. Rather, based upon an prior procedural judicial reckoning, are we able to formally declare them "mine."

Those that are granted faith in the Object of said faith, Our Lord Jesus Christ, are forensically (judicially) declared justified by God. Formal adoption follows.

The golden chain of redemption can be seen in Romans 8:30:

"Moreover whom He predestined,
- Moreover carries forward Romans 8:29:

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. "
- God ordained those to be called from eternity—you cannot undo what God ordains. – They are predestined to be conformed—not to perhaps be conformed.

these He also called;
- The predestined were called, for they were foreknew and predestined—no wooing, pleading, etc. (Rom. 1:7; Romans 8:28)

whom He called, these He also justified;
- Justification of whom (the predestined) comes by faith;
- faith comes by re-birth, the quickening (regeneration) by the Spirit from spiritual death;
- the Spirit establishes the union;
- once so quickened the mind can know, assent and trust the truth of the Gospel—saving faith;
- from saving faith comes the recognition of one's wickedness and need for repentance;
- the justified are now one of the adopted (among the "many brethren" from Romans 8:29); and
- the adopted are "to be conformed" through the walk of sanctification, becoming masterpieces performing the good works God planned from eternity (Eph. 2:10).

and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
- The predestined, who were called, regenerated, joined with Christ, believed, repented, were justified, adopted, and sanctified, are now glorified (Romans 8:17).
- Indeed this glory has already begun, for the believer is raised with Christ (Col. 3:1), is in His train when He ascended (Eph. 4:8), and are being transformed from glory to glory (2 Cor. 3:18).
- Note the exclusive use of the past tense—glorified (cf. Jude 14; most of Isa. 53)—indicating a certainty that a future event will occur, and, in the present, the fact that the promised glory of the future has already begun.


AMR

I confess... I do not follow your disagreement with what I said.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I confess... I do not follow your disagreement with what I said.

You replied as I was finalizing my post.

To claim God grants faith to those He has adopted, using the past tense "adopted," is to infelicitously infer adoption precedes faith in the outworking of God's redemptive plan for His children. See the link on "eternal justification" embedded in my updated post above.

No one is adopted before a declaration is made formalizing the act of adoption. The declaration of justification comes coincident the grant of faith to the believer. Once justified, comes the rest, e.g., union, adoption, sanctification, etc.

I am assuming you did not really mean to declare adoption precedes faith, hence my use of "infelicity." Now if you in fact did intend to do so, see my caution about eternal justification. Please clarify.

AMR

 

[glorydaz]

'saved' is the gift which is received by our believing it...faith. Our believing it comes about by the accumulation of the evidence provided by GOD's revelation of His existence thru the general revelation of nature and then thru His special revelation of Christ thru Scripture. We choose to believe it or reject it. It's up to us believers as Christ's ambassadors to present these truths to unbelievers in such a way so that they can make their choice.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Exactly. SALVATION, itself, is the gift.

Salvation comes by Grace through faith.

Our faith in the blood to be specific. Romans 3:25

Not some faith we have been given, but our believing and trusting in the BLOOD...through which we access that GRACE. Romans 5:2

 

[MennoSota]

You replied as I was finalizing my post.

To claim God grants faith to those He has adopted, using the past tense "adopted," is to infelicitously infer adoption precedes faith in the outworking of God's redemptive plan for His children. See the link on "eternal justification" embedded in my updated post above.

No one is adopted before a declaration is made formalizing the act of adoption. The declaration of justification comes coincident the grant of faith to the believer. Once justified, comes the rest, e.g., union, adoption, sanctification, etc.

I am assuming you did not really mean to declare adoption precedes faith, hence my use of "infelicity." Now if you in fact did intend to do so, see my caution about eternal justification. Please clarify.

AMR

I meant to say "adoption precedes faith", because God's choice of us precedes faith.
As an illustration:
A couple go to an orphanage to adopt a child. They see all the children there and they choose a child. The process of adoption takes place. Then the child is informed that they are adopted. The child, seeing that they are adopted, believes and leaves the orphanage with her new parents.
Adoption precedes the child's faith.
I do not see why this bothers you.

 

[MennoSota]

Exactly. SALVATION, itself, is the gift.

Salvation comes by Grace through faith.

Our faith in the blood to be specific. Romans 3:25

Not some faith we have been given, but our believing and trusting in the BLOOD...through which we access that GRACE. Romans 5:2

Saved is an action, not an object. Therefore the gift is faith. Faith that the action God did in saving (rescuing, redeeming, choosing, adopting) is real and true.
God's action in saving us is a gracious act (It was not required nor merited). The gift given is...faith...and we cannot boast about it.
What we observe in Christianity is many, many, people boasting about their faith. Pastors tell congregants to conjure up more faith. So called "healers" tell people that they aren't healed because they have not conjured up enough faith. It becomes cause for despair or boasting because people think they are the ones who conjure up faith. This is false.
God gifts his people faith and not one of us can boast about it coming from our own efforts. God is good.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I meant to say "adoption precedes faith", because God's choice of us precedes faith.
As an illustration:
A couple go to an orphanage to adopt a child. They see all the children there and they choose a child. The process of adoption takes place. Then the child is informed that they are adopted. The child, seeing that they are adopted, believes and leaves the orphanage with her new parents.
Adoption precedes the child's faith.
I do not see why this bothers you.

The analogy you use ignores the legal aspects, just as justification is a forensic act of God. The "choosing" in the analogy above applied to redemption is actually predestination unto faith and after said faith, union, adoption, etc., all worked out in time. The decree of God to elect includes the temporal aspects, which you are ignoring.

No one is justified before the granting act of faith, unless you are claiming eternal justification as do the hyper-Calvinists. None that are not justified can be called adopted.

Think through this and it will come to you.

AMR

 

[MennoSota]

The analogy you use ignores the legal aspects, just as justification is a forensic act of God. The "choosing" in the analogy above applied to redemption is actually predestination unto faith and after said faith, union, adoption, etc., all worked out in time. The decree of God to elect includes the temporal aspects, which you are ignoring.

No one is justified before the granting act of faith, unless you are claiming eternal justification as do the hyper-Calvinists. None that are not justified can be called adopted.

Think through this and it will come to you.

AMR

The legal aspects of adoption take place in predestination. God adopts us because He has predestined and chosen us. By making us alive in Christ, God establishes His legal adoption. God then gives us, the ones He has legally chosen to adopt, the gift of faith.
I am unsure as to why you are placing faith as a precursor to God's adoption. I thought you were a monergist, not a synergist.

 

[7djengo7]

Perhaps an example would help? "Why do you continue to act like a dummy?" "Have you always been this incorrigible?" (See, those are examples.)

Examples of what? Rhetorical questions?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The legal aspects of adoption take place in predestination. God adopts us because He has predestined and chosen us. By making us alive in Christ, God establishes His legal adoption. God then gives us, the ones He has legally chosen to adopt, the gift of faith.
I am unsure as to why you are placing faith as a precursor to God's adoption. I thought you were a monergist, not a synergist.

You continue to ignore the aspects of the decree pertaining to predestination unto salvation. The aspects of the decree related to election is not "predestination to salvation", but "predestination unto salvation" at the time determined solely by the counsel of God.

In other words, until the elect is actually regenerated and born-anew, he or she remains under the wrath of God.

Being ungodly, the elect as are the reprobates, are under the one and same wrath of God when the Gospel finds them, and until justifying faith. God’s elect fell in Adam just as all his natural descendants. God judged the elect just as condemned, and under wrath for sin, as the reprobate, Adam, having represented ALL men under the covenant of works (Romans 3:9; 5:12-21). All men whom Adam represented were made, or legally constituted sinners, consequent to the fall.

To claim otherwise is to make a non-necessity of Christ’s satisfaction. For His satisfaction is the very vehicle, and faith the means, through which God’s decree concerning the salvation of the elect is carried into execution, and reaches fruition.

Edwards on the matter:

Spoiler

2. The Scripture is exceeding clear in making all men, before actual reconciliation, to be in the like state and condition, without any real difference at all, the Lord reserving to himself his distinguishing purpose of the alteration he will afterward by his free grace effect: “There is none that doeth good, no, not one,” Rom. iii. 12; for “we have proved both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin,” verse 9. All mankind are in the same condition, in respect of themselves and their own real state: which truth is not at all prejudiced by the relation they are in to the eternal decrees; for “every mouth is stopped, and all the world is become guilty before God,” Rom. iii. 19, — ὑπόδικος, obnoxious to his judgment. “Who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?” 1 Cor. iv. 7. All distinguishment, in respect of state and condition, is by God’s actual grace; for even believers are “by nature children of wrath, even as others,” Eph. ii. 3. The condition, then, of all men, during their unregeneracy, is one and the same, the purpose of God concerning the difference that shall be being referred to himself. Now, I ask whether reprobates in that condition lie under the effects of God’s wrath, or no? If ye say “No,” who will believe you? If so, why not the elect also? The same condition hath the same qualifications; an actual distinguishment we have proved there is not. Produce some difference that hath a real existence, or the cause is lost.

3. Consider what it is to lie under the effects of God’s wrath, according to the declaration of the Scripture, and then see how the elect are delivered therefrom, before their actual calling. Now, this consists in divers things; as, — (1.) To be in such a state of alienation from God as that none of their services are acceptable to him: “The prayer of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord,” Prov. xxviii. 9. (2.) To have no outward enjoyment sanctified, but to have all things unclean unto them, Tit. i. 15. (3.) To be under the power of Satan, who rules at his pleasure in the children of disobedience, Eph. ii. 2. (4.) To be in bondage unto death, Heb. ii. 15. (5.) To be under the curse and condemning power of the law, Gal. iii. 13. (6.) To be obnoxious to the judgment of God, and to be guilty of eternal death and damnation, Rom. iii. 19. (7.) To be under the power and dominion of sin, reigning in them, Rom. vi. 19. These and such like are those which we call the effects of God’s anger.

Let now any one tell me what the reprobates, in this life, lie under more? And do not all the elect, until their actual reconciliation, in and by Christ, lie under the very same? for, — (1.) Are not their prayers an abomination to the Lord? can they without faith please God? Heb. xi. 6. And faith we suppose them not to have; for if they have, they are actually reconciled. (2.) Are their enjoyments sanctified unto them? hath any thing a sanctified relation without faith? See 1 Cor. vii. 14. (3.) Are they not under the power of Satan? If not, how comes Christ, in and for them, to destroy the works of the devil? Did not he not come to deliver his from him that had the power of death, that is, the devil? Heb. ii. 14; Eph. ii. 2. (4.) Are they not under bondage unto death? The apostle affirms plainly that they are so all their lives, until they are actually freed by Jesus Christ, Heb. ii. 14, 15. (5.) Are they not under the curse of the law? How are they freed from it? By Christ being made a curse for them, Gal. iii. 13. (6.) Are they not obnoxious unto judgment, and guilty of eternal death? How is it, then, that Paul says that there is no difference, but that all are subject to the judgment of God, and are guilty before him? Rom. iii. 9; and that Christ saves them from this wrath, which, in respect of merit, was to come upon them? Rom. v. 9; 1 Thess. i. 10. (7.) Are they not under the dominion of sin? “God be thanked,” says Paul, “that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed,” etc., Rom. vi. 17. In brief, the Scripture is in nothing more plentiful than in laying and charging all the misery and wrath of and due to an unreconciled condition upon the elect of God, until they actually partake in the deliverance by Christ.

Src: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/owen/deathofdeath.i.ix.viii.html

The un-regenerated elect are not already believers, justified, adopted, etc., until the temporal regeneration and grant of faith by God. At that instant of regeneration, the believer will not not believe. God is not doing the believing for the believer. The new heart given at regeneration (Eze. 36:26), implies the regenerated person is now able to believe and will do so. Regeneration is monergistic, the act of believing is synergistic.

AMR

 

[7djengo7]

...is to infelicitously infer adoption precedes faith...

I'd have said "imply" rather than "infer"; otherwise, well said.

 

[MennoSota]

You continue to ignore the aspects of the decree pertaining to predestination unto salvation. The aspects of the decree related to election is not "predestination to salvation", but "predestination unto salvation" at the time determined solely by the counsel of God.

In other words, until the elect is actually regenerated and born-anew, he or she remains under the wrath of God.

Being ungodly, the elect as are the reprobates, are under the one and same wrath of God when the Gospel finds them, and until justifying faith. God’s elect fell in Adam just as all his natural descendants. God judged the elect just as condemned, and under wrath for sin, as the reprobate, Adam, having represented ALL men under the covenant of works (Romans 3:9; 5:12-21). All men whom Adam represented were made, or legally constituted sinners, consequent to the fall.

To claim otherwise is to make a non-necessity of Christ’s satisfaction. For His satisfaction is the very vehicle, and faith the means, through which God’s decree concerning the salvation of the elect is carried into execution, and reaches fruition.

Edwards on the matter:

Spoiler

2. The Scripture is exceeding clear in making all men, before actual reconciliation, to be in the like state and condition, without any real difference at all, the Lord reserving to himself his distinguishing purpose of the alteration he will afterward by his free grace effect: “There is none that doeth good, no, not one,” Rom. iii. 12; for “we have proved both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin,” verse 9. All mankind are in the same condition, in respect of themselves and their own real state: which truth is not at all prejudiced by the relation they are in to the eternal decrees; for “every mouth is stopped, and all the world is become guilty before God,” Rom. iii. 19, — ὑπόδικος, obnoxious to his judgment. “Who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?” 1 Cor. iv. 7. All distinguishment, in respect of state and condition, is by God’s actual grace; for even believers are “by nature children of wrath, even as others,” Eph. ii. 3. The condition, then, of all men, during their unregeneracy, is one and the same, the purpose of God concerning the difference that shall be being referred to himself. Now, I ask whether reprobates in that condition lie under the effects of God’s wrath, or no? If ye say “No,” who will believe you? If so, why not the elect also? The same condition hath the same qualifications; an actual distinguishment we have proved there is not. Produce some difference that hath a real existence, or the cause is lost.

3. Consider what it is to lie under the effects of God’s wrath, according to the declaration of the Scripture, and then see how the elect are delivered therefrom, before their actual calling. Now, this consists in divers things; as, — (1.) To be in such a state of alienation from God as that none of their services are acceptable to him: “The prayer of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord,” Prov. xxviii. 9. (2.) To have no outward enjoyment sanctified, but to have all things unclean unto them, Tit. i. 15. (3.) To be under the power of Satan, who rules at his pleasure in the children of disobedience, Eph. ii. 2. (4.) To be in bondage unto death, Heb. ii. 15. (5.) To be under the curse and condemning power of the law, Gal. iii. 13. (6.) To be obnoxious to the judgment of God, and to be guilty of eternal death and damnation, Rom. iii. 19. (7.) To be under the power and dominion of sin, reigning in them, Rom. vi. 19. These and such like are those which we call the effects of God’s anger.

Let now any one tell me what the reprobates, in this life, lie under more? And do not all the elect, until their actual reconciliation, in and by Christ, lie under the very same? for, — (1.) Are not their prayers an abomination to the Lord? can they without faith please God? Heb. xi. 6. And faith we suppose them not to have; for if they have, they are actually reconciled. (2.) Are their enjoyments sanctified unto them? hath any thing a sanctified relation without faith? See 1 Cor. vii. 14. (3.) Are they not under the power of Satan? If not, how comes Christ, in and for them, to destroy the works of the devil? Did not he not come to deliver his from him that had the power of death, that is, the devil? Heb. ii. 14; Eph. ii. 2. (4.) Are they not under bondage unto death? The apostle affirms plainly that they are so all their lives, until they are actually freed by Jesus Christ, Heb. ii. 14, 15. (5.) Are they not under the curse of the law? How are they freed from it? By Christ being made a curse for them, Gal. iii. 13. (6.) Are they not obnoxious unto judgment, and guilty of eternal death? How is it, then, that Paul says that there is no difference, but that all are subject to the judgment of God, and are guilty before him? Rom. iii. 9; and that Christ saves them from this wrath, which, in respect of merit, was to come upon them? Rom. v. 9; 1 Thess. i. 10. (7.) Are they not under the dominion of sin? “God be thanked,” says Paul, “that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed,” etc., Rom. vi. 17. In brief, the Scripture is in nothing more plentiful than in laying and charging all the misery and wrath of and due to an unreconciled condition upon the elect of God, until they actually partake in the deliverance by Christ.

Src: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/owen/deathofdeath.i.ix.viii.html

The un-regenerated elect are not already believers, justified, adopted, etc., until the temporal regeneration and grant of faith by God. At that instant of regeneration, the believer will not not believe. God is not doing the believing for the believer. The new heart given at regeneration (Eze. 36:26), implies the regenerated person is now able to believe and will do so. Regeneration is monergistic, the act of believing is synergistic.

AMR

I do not say we aren't under God's wrath until God graciously redeems.
What I say is that God makes us alive in Christ (thus adopting us) before we receive the gift of faith. This is God's Sovereign right and choice.
AMR, you seem to make a simple act of God unnecessarily complex.
We disagree on your last sentence.
Regeneration is monergistic. Believing is also monergistic. We cannot believe, except that God enables us to believe.

 

[7djengo7]

The un-regenerated elect are not already believers, justified, adopted, etc., until the temporal regeneration and grant of faith by God. At that instant of regeneration, the believer will not not believe. God is not doing the believing for the believer. The new heart given at regeneration (Eze. 36:26), implies the regenerated person is now able to believe and will do so. Regeneration is monergistic, the act of believing is synergistic.

"...the act of believing is synergistic."

Saying that believing is synergistic is to make belief to be a work. Now, is belief a good work, or is it a bad work?

I know that you say that "God is not doing the believing for the believer", which is true. But what, exactly, does it look like for the act of believing to be synergistic? Is God believing with the believer?

 

[7djengo7]

Believing is also monergistic. We cannot believe, except that God enables us to believe.

By saying that believing is monergistic, you are making belief to be a work. So, is believing a good work, or is it a bad work?

Now, AMR speaks the truth when he says that "God is not doing the believing for the believer." Do you agree with that, or do you deny it?

 

[7djengo7]

I do not say we aren't under God's wrath...

Do you often speak in double negatives?