ECT Does Hebrews speak to and of the Body of Christ?

musterion

musterion

Well-known member
One angle to consider before answering:

Hebrews 12:14 Follow [pursue, chase, hunt down] peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
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versus

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith IS counted for righteousness.
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Either your faith in the DBR for your sins is counted for righteousness, and on that basis you'll see the Lord...

...or...

...you must exert effort to obtain and maintain holiness and peace with all, else you won't see the Lord.

Pick one because you can't have both.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
musterion said:
Either your faith in the DBR for your sins is counted for righteousness, and on that basis you'll see the Lord...
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So what about the Jews who believed in the DBR of Christ when Peter spoke of it on the day of Pentecost?

Were they not saved by grace through faith just like all believers?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Do you think that "works" are compatible with "grace"?

At Hebrews 12:14 the author is not telling anyone that in order to be saved that they must pursue holiness because at another place he tells them the following about their sanctification:

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).​
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
So what about the Jews who believed in the DBR of Christ when Peter spoke of it on the day of Pentecost?

Were they not saved by grace through faith just like all believers?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Do you think that "works" are compatible with "grace"?

At Hebrews 12:14 the author is not telling anyone that in order to be saved that they must pursue holiness because at another place he tells them the following about their sanctification:

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).​
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No no no, Jerry, you don't get to ask questions until you address the op.

Which one do you pick? Cuz you can't have both. They contradict.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
musterion said:
No no no, Jerry, you don't get to ask questions until you address the op.

Which one do you pick? Cuz you can't have both. They contradict.
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No they don't contradict. You are reading "works" into the passage despite the fact that these people are saved by grace through faith. The author of Hebrews is telling them to practice holiness because no sin can stand in God's presence. But they are not being told that in order to stand in His presence they must make themselves holy. Instead, they will all stand before God holy, being sanctified by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ and perfected forever.

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).​

Do you deny that that sanctification will be sufficient for them to stand holy before God?

You seem to think that "works" of one kind or another was essential to the salvation of those who lived under the law. Since works and grace are mutually exclusive then tell me why Paul makes it plain that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith if "works" were required for salvation?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
No they don't contradict. You are reading "works" into the passage despite the fact that these people are saved by grace through faith.
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Oh. So that's why they have to pursue peace and holiness, else they won't see the Lord...because they're already saved by grace through faith, without works....saved, but won't see the Lord without pursuing peace and holiness. But saved anyway.

You're very confused, Jerry. It's sad to watch.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
musterion said:
You're very confused, Jerry. It's sad to watch.
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What is sad is the fact that you assert that these people were saved by works and then you run as fast as you can from Paul's words where he says that those under the law were saved by grace through faith.

All I see from you is that you must think that they were saved by grace through faith but they couldn't be saved apart from works.

Is that what you believe? That "works" and "grace" are compatible?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
musterion,

In order to see the Lord you must believe the gospel of grace. And if you think that works are compatible with grace then you are not believing the gospel of grace because you do not understand grace.

No wonder that you run and hide from what Paul said about those who lived under the law being saved by grace through faith. You don't yet have an understanding of grace.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
[h=1]Does Hebrews speak to and of the Body of Christ?[/h]
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Yes of Course ! Now granted it was mainly for the jewish remnant that had been familiar with the Law of Moses, but nevertheless it was still to the Church, the Body of Christ which Christ is the Head.

They were Called Christ house Heb 3:1-6


Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;


2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.


3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.


4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.


5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;


6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Now who wants to debate/discuss that Christ's House isnt the Church, His Body ?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
The Holy Brethren in Heb 3:1

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

The same is called the Church, the Body of Believers in Thessalonia 1 Thess 5:26-28

26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
 
andyc

andyc

New member
musterion said:
One angle to consider before answering:

Hebrews 12:14 Follow [pursue, chase, hunt down] peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Click to expand...


You're right. Pursuing peace with all men and holiness is so overrated.
Pursuing war and unholiness is the way to go as a madist Paul fanatic.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
andyc said:
You're right. Pursuing peace with all men and holiness is so overrated.
Pursuing war and unholiness is the way to go as a madist Paul fanatic.
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This is why you are childishly stupid; you completely missed the main point.

Or, you DO see the point but want to avoid it, in which case you're deceptive.

But either way you insist on your noise being heard.

Childish.
 
andyc

andyc

New member
musterion said:
This is why you are childishly stupid; you completely missed the main point.

Or, you DO see the point but want to avoid it, in which case you're deceptive.

But either way you insist on your noise being heard.

Childish.
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Nonsense.

Pursuing peace with all men, and holiness is a continuing objective, unless your a maddist.
 
turbosixx

turbosixx

New member
musterion said:
One angle to consider before answering:



versus



Either your faith in the DBR for your sins is counted for righteousness, and on that basis you'll see the Lord...

...or...

...you must exert effort to obtain and maintain holiness and peace with all, else you won't see the Lord.

Pick one because you can't have both.
Click to expand...

You're question is a false dilemma.
 
turbosixx

turbosixx

New member
Ktoyou said:
or maybe a true dilemma, as how can a dilemma really be false?
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A yes or no question can be worded in a way that incriminates either way. For example, to ask a man "do you still beat your wife?" Yes or No?

It's a very poor way to prove a point.
 
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