Does God know the future?

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

ok, if you say so.......:darwinsm:

sorry

I take it you are an atheist?

 

[Clete]

Clete, here is a better example.

According to Einstein's theories, if I was travelling at the speed of light, I could observe events that are not moving at the speed of light at an accelerated rate and see the future of those events relative to my frame of reference.

This is incorrect. According to Einstein's THEORIES you would not notice any difference while you were traveling near the speed of light unless you were observing someone who was not traveling nearly as fast as you are (which would be rather difficult). There "time" (actually their fourth dimention) would seem to you to be accelerated but what is actually accuring is that your "time" has slowed down. Either way, you are not seeing into the future nor are you time traveling.
What's more important to this discussion is that even Einstien couldn't say for sure whether these effects had to do with time itself or with the measurement of it. This is still a very open question in physics circles, so much so that there are now physisists who do not beleive that time exists at all (in the sense that Einstein beleived it did). The point here being, Einstien's theories of both general and special relativity do not prove that time is a thing and so do nothing to prove your case.

I would see people quickly making whatever free will choices they can, but I don't stop them from having free will just because I observe them from my realtive position.

Yes, if your hypothetical here was true, you would upon observing their choice, remove their ability to do otherwise because the choice would move into the fixed past. The past cannot be altered and is therefore not free. If the future is likewise fixed then it is likewise not free.

The only way you are going to escape this is to redefine what it means to be free.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[kmoney]

Clete,

Because of the definition of the term "freedom" or "free will".
To be free means (in this context), having the ability to do or to do otherwise.

Would you agree with that definition or not?

Sure....
but I'll say what I said before....God knowing our choices doesn't take the choice away. This seems to be your line of thinking (correct me if I'm wrong)....
1) free will is the ability to do or to do otherwise
2) If God knows the future the future can only follow one path, the path God forsaw
3) We are on that path, therefore we don't have the ability to do or to do otherwise
4) no free will

I agree with you on 1) and 2).....Where we split on the issue is at 3) or between 3) and 4)
God can see the future, therefore God can know the future, but God that knowledge does not have any affect whatsoever on that future.

Which ones? The ones that came to pass or the ones that did not?

I didn't really have either group in mind. I meant just in general, but since you asked....

for the ones that came to pass...you believe that God worked with the will of people to bring them to pass?

for the ones that didn't happen....you believe this happened because people didn't work with God?

I will say though that God doing what He does to bring something to pass does not "violate the free will" of a person any more than you do when you work with the people around to get something accomplished.

Makes sense....

There is no shortage of people who would love to be the antichrist. For Satan to find a volunteer would not be difficult nor would it involve the removal of anyone's free will.

So Satan works with the will of that person?
If God prophesied that the end times will happen as they do in the bible, than, according to you, we can believe that God will work with the wills of people to bring it to pass?
but God doesn't push the antichrist Himself? he lets Satan do it? if that is true than couldn't you say God and Satan are working together? And if not, than does God know Satan will rise the antichrist up? you obviously don't believe God knows satan will rise the antichrist up because you don't believe God knows the future, so does God work with the will of Satan to work with the will of someone to make that person the antichrist?

If you have such a prerequisite you're in trouble because there are several prophecies that God made in the Bible that just flat out did not come to pass.

Can you name a few? I'm not asking you to do this because I don't believe they are there; I simply want to go through a few....do not give the story of Jonah though, Knight already gave that one earlier....

Ok...from here on it isn't in response to anything you said.....

Not sure if you saw my thread in the politics forum about the "Bible Code Bombshell" book. First off, do you believe at all in the bible code? I would assume no because you believe God doesn't know the future. Honestly I have mixed emotions about the prophetic bible code, but what I am more intrigued about is the new book (the book I posted about). This new book isn't about the bible code foretelling future events; the messages hidden in the code are relevant to the verses from which the message comes from.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44348
That is a link to the article if you care to read it...anyway, the one example from the article is from Isaiah 53. The messages found include "Dreadful day for Mary". Now I'm not sure what you will believe on this, and I honestly am not sure what I believe either, but.....
if that message was put in there by God and it isn't some result of probability than you almost have to say God knows the future. That message talks of Mary and if God doesn't know the future he wouldn't even have known Mary would exist. I guess you could say that God wanted the mother of Jesus to be named "Mary" so God worked with the will of Mary, but I sure hope you wouldn't say that.....but, I imagine you will simply belive that a bible code of any kind is untrue and is a random result of the wording of the scriptures (if you do than ok, because, like I said, I'm not even sure what I think about it all, I was just throwing it in here because I find it mildly relevant)

Question....Do you believe people can pray for "God's will" over someones life. Do you believe that God has a plan for your life? I would assume no because God doesn't know what will happen to you so he can't have a plan, except that you have salvation.

Kevin

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

I take it that most of you beleive that God's will is not sovereign. I beleive that everything that occurs is God's will and nothing can go against God's will.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I take it that most of you beleive that God's will is not sovereign.

To the contrary.

God is so completely sovereign that He is sovereign over His own sovereignity!

Said another way, God is in control of His faculties.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I beleive that everything that occurs is God's will and nothing can go against God's will.

If that were true why would God state that we are capable of resisting His will?

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

If that were true why would God state that we are capable of resisting His will?

I can stand on a beach during an earthquake and try to resist a tsunami - doesn't mean i am going to win. We can resist God's will but we are still subject to His will. Pharoah resisted God but did everything God willed.


"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

God does whatever he wants

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Can you name a few? I'm not asking you to do this because I don't believe they are there; I simply want to go through a few....do not give the story of Jonah though, Knight already gave that one earlier....

I am sure Clete will name a few for you but why would you need more than one?

Wouldn't one be enough?

In other words . . . if there were ONE event that God prophesied or predicted that DID NOT come to pass wouldn't that be proof that the future was at least partially open?

I assert that if there were a billion prophesies that all came to pass as predicted, yet if there were just one prophecy that didn't come to pass it would prove that the future was not closed.

 

[nancy]

It's theory I'll admit. The flaw you are making is saying that you are removing theor free will choices.

Wrong they are free to choose what they want. It is just from your relative position you can see their choices.

As I said, just because we have a free will by our nature does not mean that we are the cause of our free will nature.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I can stand on a beach during an earthquake and try to resist a tsunami - doesn't mean i am going to win. We can resist God's will but we are still subject to His will. Pharoah resisted God but did everything God willed.

Huh????

Are you asserting it was God's will that Pharoah keep His people captive and make slaves of them?

Is that what you are saying?

Was it God's will that man turn from Him and sin in the garden?

Was it God's will that Hitler have 6 million Jews murdered?

Was it God's will that terrorists fly planes into the World Trade Center?

Is it God's will that millions of babies are aborted each year?

And is it God's will that the majority reject Him and go to hell for eternity?

Thinking these things perverts God and His character.

 

[kmoney]

I am sure Clete will name a few for you but why would you need more than one?

Wouldn't one be enough?

In other words . . . if there were ONE event that God prophesied or predicted that DID NOT come to pass wouldn't that be proof that the future was at least partially open?

I assert that if there were a billion prophesies that all came to pass as predicted, yet if there were just one prophecy that didn't come to pass it would prove that the future was not closed.

Knight,
No, 1 isn't good enough....He has to get less than half right for the future to be closed........... kidding of course

I agree with you...God knowing future is an absolute proposition, therefore a single contradiction is sufficient to disprove it. I just want to have at least a few examples to look at, is that ok with you!?!?!?!

Kevin

 

[Emo]

The Bible is full of humans resisting God's will! Here's just one........

• Acts 7:51
  You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

Oh wait! Here's more resistance to God's will.

• John 5:40
  But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

 

[nancy]

I think the flaw you are making is that in the present moment we have free will choices. If we choose an action then that choice becomes frozen in the past anyways. Even though our past actions cannot be undone, it does not change the fact that we have free will.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

As I said, just because we have a free will by our nature does not mean that we are the cause of our free will nature.

You continue to assert that but have yet to come up with a logical explanation of how such a assertion could work.

 

[Clete]

Clete,


Sure....
but I'll say what I said before....God knowing our choices doesn't take the choice away. This seems to be your line of thinking (correct me if I'm wrong)....
1) free will is the ability to do or to do otherwise
2) If God knows the future the future can only follow one path, the path God forsaw
3) We are on that path, therefore we don't have the ability to do or to do otherwise
4) no free will

I agree with you on 1) and 2).....Where we split on the issue is at 3) or between 3) and 4)
God can see the future, therefore God can know the future, but God that knowledge does not have any affect whatsoever on that future.

I am not saying that it would effect the future, I am not saying that God's knowledge is causative.

The syllogism you offered is exactly right. It is not only valid (logically) but it is sound (i.e. all the premises are true therefore the conclusion must also be true). If you reject the conclusion you must do so at the expense of at least one of the premises. You've already agreed that premise one is correct but have rejected the conclusion. You are at this point required to reject either premise 2 or premise 3, which will it be?

I didn't really have either group in mind. I meant just in general, but since you asked....

for the ones that came to pass...you believe that God worked with the will of people to bring them to pass?

for the ones that didn't happen....you believe this happened because people didn't work with God?

Generally yes, this is what I believe.

So Satan works with the will of that person?

The antichrist may very well be Satan incarnate in which case this would not be the case but if Satan takes over a person's will it would not be allowed to happen by force. If it were by force then the processed person would be a victim and not culpable for his actions while so processed, but this is way off topic here how did we even get on this?

If God prophesied that the end times will happen as they do in the bible, then, according to you, we can believe that God will work with the wills of people to bring it to pass?

Yes. With, around, and in opposition to the wills of people as necessary.

but God doesn't push the antichrist Himself? he lets Satan do it? if that is true than couldn't you say God and Satan are working together? And if not, then does God know Satan will rise the antichrist up? you obviously don't believe God knows Satan will rise the antichrist up because you don't believe God knows the future, so does God work with the will of Satan to work with the will of someone to make that person the antichrist?

Much of what we consider end times prophecy is not Biblical first of all, and some of what you've said here I think falls into that category. But that is neither here nor there. For the purposes of this topic the idea is not so convoluted as you are making it out to be. God has an overall plan for the Earth which He intends to bring to pass in one way or another. It is not necessary for God to have every minute detail of the future worked out in order for Him to announce an intended plan. There is not one prophecy in the Book of Revelation that absolutely must come to pass. If Israel repents then God will also repent and will not do the things which He currently intends to do to Israel. (Jer. 18).

Can you name a few? I'm not asking you to do this because I don't believe they are there; I simply want to go through a few....do not give the story of Jonah though, Knight already gave that one earlier....

As if Jonah's prophecy wouldn't be enough to prove the point, right?

I'll give you two more...

Joshua 3:10
And Joshua said, "By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:

Matthew 16:28
[Jesus]Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.[/Jesus]​

Ok...from here on it isn't in response to anything you said.....

Not sure if you saw my thread in the politics forum about the "Bible Code Bombshell" book. First off, do you believe at all in the bible code?

No, not at all. It has been proven repeatedly to be a sham.

I would assume no because you believe God doesn't know the future. Honestly I have mixed emotions about the prophetic bible code, but what I am more intrigued about is the new book (the book I posted about). This new book isn't about the bible code foretelling future events; the messages hidden in the code are relevant to the verses from which the message comes from.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44348
That is a link to the article if you care to read it...anyway, the one example from the article is from Isaiah 53. The messages found include "Dreadful day for Mary". Now I'm not sure what you will believe on this, and I honestly am not sure what I believe either, but.....
if that message was put in there by God and it isn't some result of probability than you almost have to say God knows the future. That message talks of Mary and if God doesn't know the future he wouldn't even have known Mary would exist. I guess you could say that God wanted the mother of Jesus to be named "Mary" so God worked with the will of Mary, but I sure hope you wouldn't say that.....but, I imagine you will simply believe that a bible code of any kind is untrue and is a random result of the wording of the scriptures (if you do than ok, because, like I said, I'm not even sure what I think about it all, I was just throwing it in here because I find it mildly relevant)

I believe that the so called Bible codes (of which there have been several versions) have been repeatedly debunked by solid statistical science.
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/torah.html

Question....Do you believe people can pray for "God's will" over someone's life.

Do you believe that is appropriate for you to ask a Father to be involved in his children's lives? I do, so the answer to this one is, yes.

Do you believe that God has a plan for your life? I would assume no because God doesn't know what will happen to you so he can't have a plan, except that you have salvation.

God plan, or will for my life is that I love Him and do rightly. Does God have a specific plan for my life that was formulated eons before I ever existed? No, certainly not. God is not interested in micro managing our lives any more that your father is (or should be) interested in micro managing your life or you are in micro managing the lives of your own children. How would you feel about how your children turned out if they had to come to you before making any important decision? Wouldn't that indicate that you had failed to teach them what they needed to live their lives? God is the same way. God wants for us to trust Him and to have a relationship with Him where we feel comfortable approaching Him about whatever we want, but that doesn't mean that He wants for us to not learn right from wrong and to learn wisdom and to live our lives accordingly.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight,
No, 1 isn't good enough....He has to get less than half right for the future to be closed........... kidding of course

I agree with you...God knowing future is an absolute proposition, therefore a single contradiction is sufficient to disprove it. I just want to have at least a few examples to look at, is that ok with you!?!?!?!

Kevin

LOL... hey that was funny - I like your style! :up:

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Huh????

Are you asserting it was God's will that Pharoah keep His people captive and make slaves of them?

Yes, thats what the Bible teaches, that God harden Pharoah's heart

Is that what you are saying?

Was it God's will that man turn from Him and sin in the garden?

Was it God's will that Hitler have 6 million Jews murdered?

Was it God's will that terrorists fly planes into the World Trade Center?

Is it God's will that millions of babies are aborted each year?

And is it God's will that the majority reject Him and go to hell for eternity?

Thinking these things perverts God and His character.

I didn't say it, the Bible says it:

There is no evil in the city that the Lord has not caused.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Yes, thats what the Bible teaches, that God harden Pharoah's heart

I didn't say it, the Bible says it:

There is no evil in the city that the Lord has not caused.

Well there ya have it folks God is evil!

Your theology is wicked and perverse and you should be ashamed of yourself. Your theology causes you to convict God of the most heinous evils for all of history.

God has asked me to defend His name against knuckle-heads such as yourself.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

[nancy]

Pharoah was already inclined to evil. God just hardened his heart by withdrawing his grace from pharoah and letting him go about his evil end.

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Well there ya have it folks God is evil!

Your theology is wicked and perverse and you should be ashamed of yourself. Your theology causes you to convict God of the most heinous evils for all of history.

God has asked me to defend His name against knuckle-heads such as yourself.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

So what you are implying is that the Bible contadicts itself, becuase you are using James 1 to contradict Romans 9