Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

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popsthebuilder

New member
Nang said:
No.

One can never, nor should, declare God limited nor incapable.

We can only discover and assent to God's will and good purposes.

The teaching of universal salvation is non-existent in His Word.
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If by HIS word, you mean scripture, then you are being deceitful or deceived or both.



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P

popsthebuilder

New member
Rosenritter said:
Like when Jesus returned, that was real time as well? Do you have Preterist leanings? And that resurrection of the dead, do you claim that is past as well? Because John witnessed the dead resurrected and stand before God. And he witnessed over a thousand years of history.

Revelation 20:5-7 KJV
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

How could that be real-time when the vision covered more than one thousand years?
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Also; how is hell eternal is Satan himself is to be loosed?



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P

popsthebuilder

New member
Ask Mr. Religion said:

Yes.

I use the poll results as an "add to ignore list" tool. Avoids wasting time discussing things with someone already too far gone. My ignore list used to be quite large, but I decided that deniers of the Trinity, in other words, non-Christians, is the most effective means of avoiding time wasting discussions on all the other oddities such persons also carry around as baggage. Would be nice to have a rule that all members must vote in the Trinity poll. That would really help weeding out who is worth engaging and who is generally not.

AMR
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Oh my...

Soto you the doctrine of the trinity is needed for salvation?

Does that mean faith in the Christ isn't needed?

Can you please refer to scripture to verify the the trinity doctrine is needed for salvation. Also can you use scripture to reference how a Christian must by necessity be a trinitarian?

Thanks

Peace

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TulipBee

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
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G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
popsthebuilder said:
Oh my...

Soto you the doctrine of the trinity is needed for salvation?

Does that mean faith in the Christ isn't needed?

Can you please refer to scripture to verify the the trinity doctrine is needed for salvation. Also can you use scripture to reference how a Christian must by necessity be a trinitarian?

Thanks

Peace

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Click to expand...

To deny the Trinity is to remain in ignorance. Do you really wish to remain in ignorance? Be honest now, if you do, just shout it out with booming pride!
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Pops, your ability to think reasonably is beginning to concern me. You stated: "So to you, the doctrine of the trinity is needed for salvation? Does that mean faith in the Christ isn't needed?"

Why would AMRs reason for believing in the Trinity as part of the fundamentals of Christianity, mean that faith in Christ isn't necessary? How do you arrive at that conclusion? It seems as if, somewhere along your path you took an inadvertent wrong turn and ended up in "The Twilight Zone?"
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Rosenritter said:
Why do you make that assumption? Other descriptions of the same event seem very real and physical.

Malachi 4:1-3 KJV
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
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Just jumping in here...I've been following the back and forth between you and (mostly) GM and hoping he would post some other scriptures.

As to the idea of death being (in a spiritual sense) something that doesn't necessarily entail lack of consciousness, we have at least a couple of examples that come to my mind. The first one seems the most prominent one (and if I missed it, apologies for the repost) :

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:22-25

Jesus seems to be teaching here a very real place of torment that is almost unthinkable for its terror. But should we be surprised that the wrath of God is such an awful thing? It should, therefore, be no surprise that Jesus advised this :

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 18:8-9

Now, if dismemberment and what we would call torture are to be preferred to being cast into hell fire, then what does that say about the fire? Surely it denies annihilation. After all, if someone is hacked to bits here on earth, their extinction is a mercy in comparison to what they had to endure. More to the point, is the one who survives dismemberment in a better state than the one who doesn't? Certainly not categorically - but Jesus makes no bones about it.

And then we have this scripture in the OT that speaks to the spiritual nature of the fire :

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:14

First of all, it should be noted that this is clearly a spiritual condition. A spiritual fire (though no less real). I would think that would be apparent on its face.

Now, if the fire were to simply be consuming in the way we want to think of it (immediately devouring and annihilating everything it touches) then why would this scripture speak of these hypocrites dwelling in everlasting burnings?

Finally, to underscore the fact that someone can be dead (yet alive), consider this :

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jude 11-13

Ignoring for the moment the fact that they are not reserved to fire but dense darkness (eternally), note that they are twice dead - yet they live. And further, their fate is not annihilation but being swallowed up by darkness. They exist but they are put away somewhere devoid of any light.

Now, I suppose one could focus on the darkness vs. the fire, but note that in all the above instances, it is clear that while the fire rages and men are in it, the total destruction of awareness does not accompany said punishment.

It may not be nice, but it has to be reckoned with.
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
nikolai_42 said:
Just jumping in here...I've been following the back and forth between you and (mostly) GM and hoping he would post some other scriptures.

As to the idea of death being (in a spiritual sense) something that doesn't necessarily entail lack of consciousness, we have at least a couple of examples that come to my mind. The first one seems the most prominent one (and if I missed it, apologies for the repost) :

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:22-25

Jesus seems to be teaching here a very real place of torment that is almost unthinkable for its terror. But should we be surprised that the wrath of God is such an awful thing? It should, therefore, be no surprise that Jesus advised this :

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 18:8-9

Now, if dismemberment and what we would call torture are to be preferred to being cast into hell fire, then what does that say about the fire? Surely it denies annihilation. After all, if someone is hacked to bits here on earth, their extinction is a mercy in comparison to what they had to endure. More to the point, is the one who survives dismemberment in a better state than the one who doesn't? Certainly not categorically - but Jesus makes no bones about it.

And then we have this scripture in the OT that speaks to the spiritual nature of the fire :

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:14

First of all, it should be noted that this is clearly a spiritual condition. A spiritual fire (though no less real). I would think that would be apparent on its face.

Now, if the fire were to simply be consuming in the way we want to think of it (immediately devouring and annihilating everything it touches) then why would this scripture speak of these hypocrites dwelling in everlasting burnings?

Finally, to underscore the fact that someone can be dead (yet alive), consider this :

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jude 11-13

Ignoring for the moment the fact that they are not reserved to fire but dense darkness (eternally), note that they are twice dead - yet they live. And further, their fate is not annihilation but being swallowed up by darkness. They exist but they are put away somewhere devoid of any light.

Now, I suppose one could focus on the darkness vs. the fire, but note that in all the above instances, it is clear that while the fire rages and men are in it, the total destruction of awareness does not accompany said punishment.

It may not be nice, but it has to be reckoned with.
Click to expand...

Good post. I actually believe the Lazarus story is speaking of a REAL place that exists after the unsaved leave their physical body behind. Some may think it's a parable of sorts. I believe that Christ (after His death) went to Abrahams Bosom and brought those people up to Heaven with Him, leaving only that area where the unsaved are kept. That's my opinion. Those unsaved will be taken out of that area and brought to the judgment someday.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Grosnick Marowbe said:
Good post. I actually believe the Lazarus story is speaking of a REAL place that exists after the unsaved leave their physical body behind. Some may think it's a parable of sorts. I believe that Christ (after His death) went to Abrahams Bosom and brought those people up to Heaven with Him, leaving only that area where the unsaved are kept. That's my opinion. Those unsaved will be taken out of that area and brought to the judgment someday.
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I have heard people deal with this parable as though it is unquestionably real in all aspects of it. They even say there is a place called Abraham's Bosom. I have a hard time with that last part because it seems to me to be a reference to benefitting from the faith of Abraham in a time before Christ was revealed - not a specific place. Sort of in the sense of Luke 16:9 (though the reference to mammon there doesn't necessarily apply).

As to the parable as a whole, I've never seen (what I think is) sufficient evidence to categorically say it's a true story. It's always sounded to me like Jesus was saying something to the effect of Once upon a time, there was a man named Lazarus... - but given that He wasn't there to simply tell nice stories, it would have to be clear that even if there was never a man named Lazarus and a rich man in this situation, the prospect of having this experience is very real. [AI]ny similarities to persons living or dead...is purely coincidental[/I] (again...in effect). I have wondered if He was speaking directly to some tradition or belief of the Pharisees that we don't have any record of - along the lines of the Good Samaritan - but that is just speculation.

Fortunately, it doesn't change the message.
 
P

popsthebuilder

New member
Grosnick Marowbe said:
Hey, Pops, give me some good reasons why there's NO Trinity in the Bible? Convince me with all your might.
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I wasn't aware that I said there was no trinity in the bible.

But it isn't. That should be a pretty good reason in itself.

the trinity is helpful in understanding the things of GOD that can be perceived by man, but still doesn't seem to be pertinent to salvation exactly.



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