Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

TulipBee

TulipBee

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this topic started with law law law !

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Ask Mr. Religion

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Arthur Brain said:
You still can't know AMR.
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Scripture disagrees with you.

That we can be certain of our full assurance, without any sort of extraordinary revelation, is clear from Scripture. We need to trust God's word, not our fickle feelings, when He says "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

It is through the Scripture that the Spirit bears witness to us that we are God's adopted children. The underlying text of the New Testament for "assurance" means "full assurance, certainty". The word (pleroforia) with this clear meaning appears only four times in the New Testament: 1 Cor. 2:2; 1 Thess. 1:5; Heb. 6:11; 10:22.

AMR
 
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Angel4Truth said:
Ask Mr. Religion said:
No one but God knows who is elect or who is not.
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1 John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true — in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
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That quote of mine you are using is taken absent the context for which it was proffered, which was concerning the matter of promiscuous evangelization as the ordinary means by which God's children are brought into the kingdom.

The two Scripture citations used above are part and parcel of my responses to AB concerning the assurance of the believer, that is, the regenerated elect have warrant to know with a certainty that they are indeed saved.

AMR
 
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popsthebuilder said:
As far as annihilationism is concerned; I referenced this link as simple showing mistranslated or misinterpreted texts isn't going to do it justice, especially since some think I don't know what I'm talking about.

Here's the link http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/

Pretty interesting, even to Calvinists surely.

At least those without bias and misplaced pride. (not saying any here are that way, just compelling evidence in my opinion.
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Your oblique insult notwithstanding, please dig deeper.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell.html

The church has spoken on the matter of what Scripture teaches about eternal punishment. You are beyond the bounds.

Spoiler
Chapter 32. Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead
1. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption: (Gen. 3:19, Acts 13:36) but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them: (Luke 23:43, Eccl. 12:7) the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies. (Heb. 12:23, 2 Cor. 5:1, 6, 8, Phil. 1:23, Acts 3:21, Eph. 4:10) And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. (Luke 16:23-24, Acts 1:25, Jude 6-7, 1 Pet. 3:19) Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

2. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: (1 Thess. 4:17, 1 Cor. 15:51-52) and all the dead shall be raised up, with the self-same bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls for ever. (Job 19:26-27, 1 Cor. 15:42-44)

3. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonour: the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honour; and be made conformable to His own glorious body. (Acts 24:15, John 5:28-29, 1 Cor. 15:43, Philip. 3:21)


Annihilation is contrary to all analogy. God does not annihilate His work, however much He may change its form. The Scripture idea of death has nothing in common with annihilation. Life and death are exact opposites in Scripture. If death means simply the cessation of being or consciousness, life must mean only the continuation of these; but as a matter of fact it means much more than that, see Rom. 8:6; I Tim. 4:8; I John 3:14.

The term life has a spiritual connotation, and so has the word death. Man is spiritually dead before he falls a prey to physical death, but this does not involve a loss of being or consciousness, Eph. 2:1,2; I Tim. 5:6; Col. 2:13; Rev. 3:1.

Annihilation can hardly be called a punishment, since this implies a consciousness of pain and ill-desert, while, when existence terminates, consciousness also ceases. It might at most be said that the dread of annihilation would be a punishment, but this punishment would not be commensurate with the transgression. And naturally the dread of a man who never had within him the spark of immortality, will never equal that of him who has eternity in his heart, Eccl. 3:11.

It often happens that people consider the extinction of being and of consciousness a very desirable thing, when they grow tired of life. For these such a punishment would be in reality a blessing. And punishment, retributive punishment, is what is called for by God. Annihilationism admits of no degrees of punishment as all transgressors are punished exactly alike. This contradicts Luke 12:47-48; Romans 2:12. Indeed, the extinction of consciousness is not regarded by sinful men as an evil, but a good.

See also:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?113700-Heaven-when-do-we-go-there&p=4492357#post4492357

AMR
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Ignoring your ongoing denial of the doctrine of everlasting punishment, you are speaking nonsense. No one but God knows who is elect or who is not. Do your Scriptural duty and teach your children the things of God, leaving the matter of their eternal destiny in His hands rather than trying to peer behind the curtain and ascertain what is forbidden (Deut. 29:29).

The promiscuous spreading of the Good News is the ordinary means by which the children of God are brought into the Kingdom. God commands we preach the Gospel to all persons. We obey. Those efficaciously called by God the Holy Spirit are born anew (Eze. 36:26). They are now able to hear the Good News with ears to hear. They do hear. They indeed will believe. They are then justified and in union with Our Lord. God decreed these means and our obedience to do them is how these means are used for His ends.

AMR
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TulipBee has already determined that I am not among this secret elect. Although you claim that Calvinists do not believe they can know who is elect and who is not, in practicality Calvinists usually believe that Calvinists are among the elect, and non-Calvinists (whom they call Arminians) are not.
 
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popsthebuilder

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Your oblique insult notwithstanding, please dig deeper.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell.html

The church has spoken on the matter of what Scripture teaches about eternal punishment. You are beyond the bounds.

Spoiler
Chapter 32. Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead
1. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption: (Gen. 3:19, Acts 13:36) but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them: (Luke 23:43, Eccl. 12:7) the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies. (Heb. 12:23, 2 Cor. 5:1, 6, 8, Phil. 1:23, Acts 3:21, Eph. 4:10) And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. (Luke 16:23-24, Acts 1:25, Jude 6-7, 1 Pet. 3:19) Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

2. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: (1 Thess. 4:17, 1 Cor. 15:51-52) and all the dead shall be raised up, with the self-same bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls for ever. (Job 19:26-27, 1 Cor. 15:42-44)

3. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonour: the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honour; and be made conformable to His own glorious body. (Acts 24:15, John 5:28-29, 1 Cor. 15:43, Philip. 3:21)


Annihilation is contrary to all analogy. God does not annihilate His work, however much He may change its form. The Scripture idea of death has nothing in common with annihilation. Life and death are exact opposites in Scripture. If death means simply the cessation of being or consciousness, life must mean only the continuation of these; but as a matter of fact it means much more than that, see Rom. 8:6; I Tim. 4:8; I John 3:14.

The term life has a spiritual connotation, and so has the word death. Man is spiritually dead before he falls a prey to physical death, but this does not involve a loss of being or consciousness, Eph. 2:1,2; I Tim. 5:6; Col. 2:13; Rev. 3:1.

Annihilation can hardly be called a punishment, since this implies a consciousness of pain and ill-desert, while, when existence terminates, consciousness also ceases. It might at most be said that the dread of annihilation would be a punishment, but this punishment would not be commensurate with the transgression. And naturally the dread of a man who never had within him the spark of immortality, will never equal that of him who has eternity in his heart, Eccl. 3:11.

It often happens that people consider the extinction of being and of consciousness a very desirable thing, when they grow tired of life. For these such a punishment would be in reality a blessing. And punishment, retributive punishment, is what is called for by God. Annihilationism admits of no degrees of punishment as all transgressors are punished exactly alike. This contradicts Luke 12:47-48; Romans 2:12. Indeed, the extinction of consciousness is not regarded by sinful men as an evil, but a good.

See also:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?113700-Heaven-when-do-we-go-there&p=4492357#post4492357

AMR
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Wasn't insulting any in particular, certainly not you.

Beyond that; annihilationism in no way assumes that there is no punishment but cessation of existence, nor does it deem all punishment the same.

Those seem to be assumptions on your part.

Granted some may long for death, but death alone isn't what I am talking about. I am talking about hell only being for a term, and not infinite for finite sin.

Did I miss your reply about universal reconciliation, or have you chosen to not comment on that any further though I offered up scripture to support it.

Someone mentioned that I didn't explain said scripture...it is self explanatory.

All means all in those cases, and there is more scripture than what I posted that lends credit to universal reconciliation.

Also, if anihalationism is true then universal reconciliation works quite well with it.

I see evidence for both in scripture and other core religious texts too, not that those matter to any here per say.

Peace

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Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Then do not raise up your children as commanded in Scripture. Your quibble is not with me, but with God. That said, I suspect you will actually teach them as you are commanded. You will go off thinking you had it all correct. No matter. Just do your duty and God will do as He is so pleased to do. The same sun that melts the snow, hardens the clay. The Gospel brings some into the Kingdom and hardens others even moreso than their originally fallen state. God is not obliged to pour out salvific grace upon all of the lost from birth. Mercy is getting what you do not deserve. Justice is getting what you do.
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If Calvinism is true, whether my children are raised according to scripture has nothing to do with their salvation. And if Calvinism is true, whether my children are raised according to scripture or not has nothing to do with my will, it was decreed from before the beginning of the world. If they aren't raised according to scripture it's God's fault for he knew and planned it all according to his will. If they are damned then the credit also goes to God for that as well, for he would have it no other way.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Please try to keep up instead of just driving by and throwing out whatever pops into your noggin.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Make-God-Unjust/page160&p=4813465#post4813465

AMR
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Your god is far different than the God of the Bible. Your god chose you and Nang and a few others on TOL to save and has decreed the rest on TOL to eternal damnation. Your god makes no logical sense compared to the God of the Bible. So, I'll keep my faith in the God of the Bible and you keep your god that was created by Calvin and his ilk. How's that sound?
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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John Calvin was a tyrannical, murdering, sadistic type of individual according to history. If he's a good example of Calvinism, I don't know why anybody would have a desire to be a Calvinist? However, he's YOUR example I suppose.
 
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popsthebuilder said:
Beyond that; annihilationism in no way assumes that there is no punishment but cessation of existence, nor does it deem all punishment the same.
Did I miss your reply about universal reconciliation, or have you chosen to not comment on that any further though I offered up scripture to support it.
Someone mentioned that I didn't explain said scripture...it is self explanatory.
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I am not going to engage the topic as it is beyond the bounds of orthodoxy.

I responded to you on the matter of reconciliation on two separate occasions. If you are seeking to use the topic as a means for universalism, again, I do not engage the entrenched on contrary matters of orthodoxy. Please review the linked content I have provided about the topic of annihilationism.

Usually, only didactic Scripture is self-explanatory. The rest require exegetical effort.

AMR
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

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Rosenritter said:
How does AMR in one post say "Only God knows who the elect are" with "Only the elect shall be saved" and then that he can have "full assurance of his salvation?"
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Well, presumably he means that only God would know beforehand who would be part of this 'elect' and AMR has the sheer good fortune to have been picked from the outset which he knows now because he can point to bible verses that apparently support that.

Not sure what makes AMR or other Calvinists so special as to be picked exactly...

Some will say they're absolutely no better or different than their 'reprobate' neighbour who's bound for 'hell' except that would equate to God pretty much playing dice with people effectively. This God who is love apparently, go figure.
 
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