Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

marhig

Well-known member
Joh 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

We are supposed to believe the scripture (2 Timothy 3:16). It does say Jesus is God. In so many fashions and ways in and out.

As I've said before, the scriptures state over and over that Jesus is the son of God, not God the son. And in many many places that God is the God of Christ Jesus. I have quoted many scriptures.

Nowhere does it say that I have to believe in the trinity or that Jesus is God to be saved.

It says that I am to believe that Jesus is the son of God.

And I understand who Jesus is, just as it was revealed to Peter who Jesus is, he is the Christ, the son of the living God. God never revealed to Peter that Jesus was God or that he was God the son!

And seeing as that revelation came from the father then I believe it is the truth and that's all I need to know, according to Jesus!

Matthew 16

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven
 
Last edited:

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Your second error is that your question contains a flawed assumption. The Bible never says that Jesus was sacrificed to appease God. But among other things, it does says that Jesus was sacrificed so that if he were lifted up, that he might draw all men to him.


Really?

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
You say that we can confidently state from scripture the three people of the Godhead.

I ask you to kindly do that now please sir.

I am not aligned with a homoousian perspective.

I am more aligned with a view of the trinity similar to that of arianism. I believe that the Father beget the Son. I feel they are the same but that one is GOD, and the other is the word of GOD. It's relevance is the potential for man to blindly worship man which can lead to atrocities against mankind as has been seen in history and present day.

I don't deny the Father, son, or the Holy Spirit, so what are you talking about?

Also; my eyes must be getting bad, but I didn't see anything about consubstsntial, or coequal in that verse either.Could you try again please?

Once again, just so we are clear; I do believe in a form of the trinity. I even believe they are all three con substantial. I even hold Christ equivalent to GOD now that he has ascended to his station with the Father. I even believe that Christ was with GOD as the Holy spirit prior to the formation of the earth.

I have failed to do my own homework about your views before engaging you at any level. Fool me once, shame on me. Sigh. I do not make it a practice to discuss Scripture with those that deny the Triune Godhead. By denying the Trinity, these persons have prima facie demonstrated an inability to properly interpret Scripture. Such is the problem with all non-believers.

Your frequent claims of believing in the trinity was masked by the usual cultic method of redefining commonly understood terms. Your "trinity" is not that of Christendom's.

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame

marhig

Well-known member

Yes.

I use the poll results as an "add to ignore list" tool. Avoids wasting time discussing things with someone already too far gone. My ignore list used to be quite large, but I decided that deniers of the Trinity, in other words, non-Christians, is the most effective means of avoiding time wasting discussions on all the other oddities such persons also carry around as baggage. Would be nice to have a rule that all members must vote in the Trinity poll. That would really help weeding out who is worth engaging and who is generally not.

AMR


Luke 18

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
 

marhig

Well-known member
I have failed to do my own homework about your views before engaging you at any level. Fool me once, shame on me. Sigh. I do not make it a practice to discuss Scripture with those that deny the Triune Godhead. By denying the Trinity, these persons have prima facie demonstrated an inability to properly interpret Scripture. Such is the problem with all non-believers.

Your frequent claims of believing in the trinity was masked by the usual cultic method of redefining commonly understood terms. Your "trinity" is not that of Christendom's.

AMR

And your trinitarian beliefs are not of God! They were founded with the Nicene creed around 300 after Jesus came. When a council under Constantine came together to decide who Jesus was. Firstly came up with a duality and didn't include the holy spirit, and then a trinity, made up by man.

And it gets worse, added to that comes the once saved always saved doctrine, you're going to heaven regardless what you do. God then comes in flesh as has himself crucified as a sacrifice to save those who are elect before they were born. And so because of that, they are ok sinning and they don't have to obey God or Christ because they are elect and going to heaven regardless! Only Satan teaches that we can carry on sinning and that we don't have to obey God and Christ and that will still go to heaven.

In other words, carry on sinning, don't worry, you shall not surely die!

Yes we will, we will be cast out and we will be twice dead, carry on and we will be plucked up at the roots.

We all sin, but God wants a clean heart within us, and if the spirit of Christ is within our hearts then we will be striving to turn from sin. And the holy spirit will be guiding us everyday to follow the truth, God has given us a conscience and we are you obey him and we have Jesus as an example to follow.

We all sin, but we should be striving turn from sin and have our hearts cleansed by the blood of Christ within. Washed by the word and cleansed inside and out, so Christ can be seen in us through us. And when we know we've sinned we are to go to God and repent.

You will know Gods true people by their fruits and they will be living it out and they will be judged by they're works, they will be those who do the will of the father and worship him in spirit and in truth. Not those who only believe in the trinity. And Christ through them will judge the world by the word of God!

Show me in the Bible where it says that anyone has to believe in the trinity to saved or belong to God?

Matthew 12

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Those who do the will of God the father belong to Christ. Not only those who believe in the trinity!
 

popsthebuilder

New member
I have failed to do my own homework about your views before engaging you at any level. Fool me once, shame on me. Sigh. I do not make it a practice to discuss Scripture with those that deny the Triune Godhead. By denying the Trinity, these persons have prima facie demonstrated an inability to properly interpret Scripture. Such is the problem with all non-believers.

Your frequent claims of believing in the trinity was masked by the usual cultic method of redefining commonly understood terms. Your "trinity" is not that of Christendom's.

AMR
That is a lie seeing as how the trinity isn't is scripture.

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I have failed to do my own homework about your views before engaging you at any level. Fool me once, shame on me. Sigh. I do not make it a practice to discuss Scripture with those that deny the Triune Godhead. By denying the Trinity, these persons have prima facie demonstrated an inability to properly interpret Scripture. Such is the problem with all non-believers.

Your frequent claims of believing in the trinity was masked by the usual cultic method of redefining commonly understood terms. Your "trinity" is not that of Christendom's.

AMR

If he is right then you are wrong.

You are wrong.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

LA
 

musterion

Well-known member
I have failed to do my own homework about your views before engaging you at any level. Fool me once, shame on me. Sigh.

You've been here much longer than I but in my experience, you're not to be faulted for that. People like him hide their true beliefs as long as possible just to keep attention going. They know if they show their hand, will be written off immediately. So they pretend to be in earnest and we take them as they present themselves, assuming of them honesty and transparency where nothing but an agenda exists. And we get burned by it again and again.

You and I will never ever come to an agreement on the issues related to Calvinism. But at least we've let each other know exactly where we stand, as MEN are expected to do. Not so with many (most?) here, like Pops. I put him on ignore pretty quickly, as soon as he started acting weaselly and evasive. That's always a sure sign that has yet to fail.

So IMO, FWIW, you have no fault here except for giving the newb benefit of doubt, which my spitball calculations say 'pays off' maybe 25% of the time on TOL.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hi all,
It would not be right to convince AMR of the truth without his change in character and willingness to forsake all he has to follow Christ as Paul advised and did--


Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

It is madness for AMR to reject disciples of Jesus Christ, on the basis of his believing the doctrine of the trinity formulated by the RCC which is proven to be so unscriptural. (the doctrine and the RCC).

LA
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
As I've said before, the scriptures state over and over that Jesus is the son of God, not God the son. And in many many places that God is the God of Christ Jesus. I have quoted many scriptures.

Nowhere does it say that I have to believe in the trinity or that Jesus is God to be saved.

It says that I am to believe that Jesus is the son of God.

And I understand who Jesus is, just as it was revealed to Peter who Jesus is, he is the Christ, the son of the living God. God never revealed to Peter that Jesus was God or that he was God the son!

And seeing as that revelation came from the father then I believe it is the truth and that's all I need to know, according to Jesus!

Matthew 16

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven
I left you proof texts that Jesus is lord and you disappeared. It is funny how the self denied Arminian quotes scripture in support of their doctrines but no Scripture hints at what they teach.
 
Last edited:

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Reading the verses speak for themselves.

You are using a view from outside of the Bible to misinterpret the Bible.

LA

On the contrary. I directly quoted the verses with almost no comment at all to accompany them specifically because I knew some stiff-necked nincompoop would make such a charge.

You simply do not wish to conform your religious beliefs to what the bible plainly states. Again, there are issues that are debatable; there are issues on which the bible is less than perfectly clear; there are things that the bible does not say explicitly; this is not one of those things. You just don't get to believe anything at all and still get to rightly call yourself a Christian, LA. I, for the life of me, cannot figure out what the heck would cause you to want to deny such a flatly obvious teaching as the deity of Christ but I'm not here to read minds. You can believe whatever you want, just don't delude yourself into thinking that you're worshiping God if you aren't worshiping the Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator of all things and in Whom all things consist.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
The three with the same nature I agree with, God coming in a man I agree with seeing as God was in Jesus and Jesus was dead to the flesh, not living by his will but by Gods will, and he was in the express image of God. I've never said that there was Jesus the man before Mary, the angel told Mary to call him Jesus, the fleshly Jesus was born of Mary and the Christ was in him.
You understand that I brought all that up in refutation of your use of Scripture to suggest that Jesus was not God and that your acknowledgement of the truth of my point is an acknowledgment that your use of Scrpture is (was) faulty - right?

What I am saying is, that Christ is subject to God, as it clearly says in the Bible

1 Corinthians 15

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Yes, God the Son humbled Himself and became a man and submitted Himself, not only to God the Father but to the Law of Moses and even to human authority. None of which is relevant to the notion that Jesus was God become flesh and that the Logos which became Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning and John states quite explicitly.

And why would God need to come into a human body and be sacrificed for all humanity at all? Why not just forgive them all? Seeing as he's God?
Becuase God is just!

God is not arbitrary as the Calvinist would have you believe. He cannot just do anything at all and remain just. He has to act justly to remain just because that's what it means to be just. The Calvinist teach that God can do whatever He wants and that it would be just by virtue of the fact that it was God doing it. This renders justice meaningless, as applied to God's character. Thy believe that God could have snapped the Holy Finger and allowed the sound of it to atone for the sins of man. It isn't so. The bible states that there was only "One found worthy". That was said in relation to opening the seven seals in Revelation but if God can just declare anyone worthy by fiat then where's the need to search for someone? Why even bother with the seven seals judgment in the first place, for that matter.

God does what He does because it is the right thing to do. This goes for atoning for sin as well as everything else God does.

Jesus sacrificed his whole life for God, he was dead long before he went in the cross, dead to this world. And by sacrificing his life and not living by his will but by God's will, he was able show us a perfect example to follow, a new and living way teaching us how to live right before the father, showing us how to forgive, love, and obey and live right to come back to God. Thus he was reconciling us God, God was in him and through him and by not living in the flesh being dead to this world, he came to bare witness to the truth, he is the way, the truth and the life, and we are saved by his life. By faith, by following him and by his life manifest in our hearts through the holy spirit!
We are saved by His death, marhig. His slow, painful, physical and spiritual death. He died so that we wouldn't have to.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.​

Further, Jesus lived (and died) under the Law and taught people to do the same. You would not know and could not practice Christianity without the Pauline epistles. But that's a topic for another thread.

You say it is unchristian not to believe in the trinity, yet nowhere in the Bible is it said that we must believe in this to belong to God, and it clearly says that we are to believe that Jesus is the son of God, not God the son to be saved.
You can play around all you like. You can rationalize this all to death and back again if you really feel like you need too. You can argue all you like about the specifics of the Trinity doctrine itself but there is nothing - NOTHING - that the bible teaches more clearly than it teaches that Jesus is the incarnate Creator God Himself. If you deny it then you are denying the authority of the scripture to define your religious beliefs. In which case, you might as well go join up with the Mormons. You'd be no less a Christian if you did.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

marhig

Well-known member
You understand that I brought all that up in refutation of your use of Scripture to suggest that Jesus was not God and that your acknowledgement of the truth of my point is an acknowledgment that your use of Scrpture is (was) faulty - right?


Yes, God the Son humbled Himself and became a man and submitted Himself, not only to God the Father but to the Law of Moses and even to human authority. None of which is relevant to the notion that Jesus was God become flesh and that the Logos which became Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning and John states quite explicitly.


Becuase God is just!

God is not arbitrary as the Calvinist would have you believe. He cannot just do anything at all and remain just. He has to act justly to remain just because that's what it means to be just. The Calvinist teach that God can do whatever He wants and that it would be just by virtue of the fact that it was God doing it. This renders justice meaningless, as applied to God's character. Thy believe that God could have snapped the Holy Finger and allowed the sound of it to atone for the sins of man. It isn't so. The bible states that there was only "One found worthy". That was said in relation to opening the seven seals in Revelation but if God can just declare anyone worthy by fiat then where's the need to search for someone? Why even bother with the seven seals judgment in the first place, for that matter.

God does what He does because it is the right thing to do. This goes for atoning for sin as well as everything else God does.


We are saved by His death, marhig. His slow, painful, physical and spiritual death. He died so that we wouldn't have to.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.​

Further, Jesus lived (and died) under the Law and taught people to do the same. You would not know and could not practice Christianity without the Pauline epistles. But that's a topic for another thread.


You can play around all you like. You can rationalize this all to death and back again if you really feel like you need too. You can argue all you like about the specifics of the Trinity doctrine itself but there is nothing - NOTHING - that the bible teaches more clearly than it teaches that Jesus is the incarnate Creator God Himself. If you deny it then you are denying the authority of the scripture to define your religious beliefs. In which case, you might as well go join up with the Mormons. You'd be no less a Christian if you did.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete, show me in the Bible where it says I must believe in the trinity to be saved!

People pull others to pieces, calling them heretics and say that they not even worth speaking to because they say that you must believe in the trinity to belong to God and to be saved. And if you don't believe in the trinity, your not a Christian and even saying that those who don't agree with the trinity doctrine are unbelievers and belong to Satan.

So, show me where it says that I must believe in the trinity in the Bible? Which chapter and verse is it in?
 

marhig

Well-known member
I left you proof texts that Jesus is lord and you disappeared. It is funny how the self denied Arminian quotes scripture in support of their doctrines but no Scripture hints at what they teach.

I don't know which post your talking about. I probably disappeared either because i was busy or it was time for bed!

But tell you what. Can you tell me where the chapter and verse is, where we are told that we are to believe in the trinity to be saved?

How can you and others tell people that they have to believe in the trinity to belong to God and be saved and then not back it up with scripture. So where is it?
 
Top