God_Is_Truth
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whether we are calvinists, arminians, open theists, molinists or whatever, we preach the same gospel.
Does Calvinism limit God?
- Thread starter Poly
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whether we are calvinists, arminians, open theists, molinists or whatever, we preach the same gospel.
Z Man
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Hold up a second. You just stated in the first footnote:
"13:8 Or written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain "
So your wrong if your position was to argue that the writing of the names weren't predestined.
But again, that is not what this passage is implying. This footnote may be against the notion of the Lamb being slain from the foundation of the world, but it does support the theory that the names were written before that time. Therefore, I have no idea why you would use it as evidence to support your view.
Your second footnote doesn't help your position either:
"Or written in the book...slain from the foundation of the world."
Are you implying that a book was slain? :ha: I hope not...
Either way GIT, you lose. Revelations 13:8 proves my point and you have nothing to indicate otherwise. In order to conclude that this verse does not imply that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, one must blatantly deny Scripture and avoid the obvious, in which you have sucessfully done.
Ummmm.... calamity, evil, disaster.... WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? Why do YOU have such a hard time accepting the fact that God said that He creates good and evil? I don't have a problem for accepting what the Scriptures say. You're the one given them new meanings and off-the-wall interpretations that take the verses totally out of context of it's original meaning, not me.
Job 1:6-12
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
The Lord is the one who mentioned Job to Satan that he should cause turmoil in his life. But Satan was aware that God had His protection around Job and asked that God "stretch out His hand and touch all that he has [so that he would] curse God". And you know what God did? He granted Satan's wish. Through Satan, God unleashed His wrath against Job and caused great turmoil in his life, although Job was a man who shunned from evil (Job 1:1). Hmmmm.... I wonder why God would do such a thing?
Job 42:1-6
Then Job answered the Lord and said: "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."
That's why.
Esau didn't do a thing. God hated him before he was born!
Romans 9:13
As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated (Malachi 1:2, 3)."
Hmmm... now why would God do that? This is why:
Romans 9:11
that the purpose of God according to election might stand
God put His own Son through the worst evil ever committed upon the earth. All of it was predetermined by God. He unleashed His wrath against His own Son, through the Romans and Pharisees and Pilate, and Judas; they were all created for one reason - to kill the Son of God.
Now, I wonder why He would create the most evil act, through the very beings He created (the Jews, Pharisees, Romans, etc.)? Does that question really need to be asked? THROUGH THE MOST EVIL ACT EVER COMMITTED, GOD BROUGHT ABOUT SALVATION FOR MANY! At the very core of all things, God's glory is what is ultimately being achieved. He is simply self-exalting Himself through all that He creates, whether it be evil or good.
God creates the light and the darkness; He creates good and evil. Jehovah God does all these things! Praise be to Him forever!
If God predestined His own Son to die, why would it not be appropiate for God to predestine a woman to be raped? Surely that women deserves much worse! And surely God is not obligated to love anyone or show us mercy and grace! If Christ was destined to die, then how can we be so prideful in expecting blessings and acts of mercy from God Himself??? That woman who may be raped should be praising God that she is still alive!
I know this sounds harsh, but I just want to make a point that we are depraved. And to expect such great things from God when He didn't even spare His wrath from people like Job and Jesus, and even Esau who did no evil since he wasn't even born yet, is prideful and ignorant.
:sigh: Yes, you got to me, finally. I'm usually patient with you, but after continually denying the obvious in the Scriptures I presented to you, I did get irritated. I can take a person calling me dumb, or saying my theology is stupid, or false, or whatever. But when I show evidence of my position with CLEAR and OBVIOUS Scripture that thorougly and clearly states exactly what I believe, and then someone just denies it or ignores it altogether, or even attempts to say that it doesn't mean what it says, that's when I get frustrated. How can a person truely understand if they won't even acknowledge the truth presented in the Scriptures that I and other's have brought forth? It leads me to believe that the only point people are really here discussing theology isn't to help anyone or to learn, but to boastfully say that their view is correct, no matter how many times they are shown through Scripture that they are wrong! It comes down to pride.did i touch a nerve? sorry
If someone who had never heard of God, or had no particular theological mindset, were given the Bible and read it entirely through, I am persuaded that that individual would believe the way most "Calvinists" do. We take the Word for what it truely says, without avoiding or explaining away the tough to understand passages that involve predestination and election and God's Soveriegnty. Open Theists are the ones who seem to do those things. Their view hinges a few verses here and there, and thus their interpretation of the Bible is totally out of context.
God_Is_Truth
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here is the verse:
Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world
let's dig in to this and see what we find.
"all whose names have not been written" is the first part. simple enough right? but this leads to the obvious question of, written where? and that's the next part of the verse.
"in the book of life" ah. so now we see that it is the book of life where the names are written down. well who does the book of life belong to? the next part tells us.
"belonging to the Lamb that was slain" so we can the see that the book of life belongs to the Lamb that was slain-Jesus.
and the final part of it "from the creation of the world" is also in reference to the book just like the rest of it. the book of life, owned by Jesus, where people's name's are written down is from the foundation of the world. see?
another way to look at it. Jesus and the Lamb that was slain are the same thing, are they not? Jesus=the Lamb that was slain. so, we should be able to input "Jesus" in for "the Lamb that was slain" right?
Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to Jesus from the creation of the world
and with that, the verse is MUCH clearer.
i am not doing the word of God an injustice. i am merely stating what is written there.
was God being evil when he flooded the earth? according to your reasoning, yes. because all natural disasters and calamity are evil and since the flood would be one of these, then God flooding the earth was also an evil act-by your reasoning.
see the problem?
noooo. God never laid a finger on him but instead allowed Satan to touch him. God did not do any of those things to job. they were ALL done by Satan under God's permission.
yeah, an omnibenevolent God hating someone before they have done anything bad, that makes sense :doh:
Jesus gave us his own life. no one made him go to the cross. he did it by himself.
because Jesus was willing to do that for us. amazing grace....
the evil act was NOT done by God, but by men who put him on the cross. God works ALL things for good...
if she deserved it then it wasn't predestined.
well hopefully you will see that i haven't violated any scripture
well, i've yet to see CLEAR and OBVIOUS scripture
well i certainly hope i haven't come off as prideful, because that's not my intent. i am still learning new things from the word and don't claim to understand everything. i come here to share what i've learned, learn how other people see things and hopefully find the truth of the matter.
that's too bad we can't test that theory out. i'd love to see the results
while i can't speak for all open theists, the ones i do know don't seem to do those things, as far as i can tell.
God bless Z Man.
In Christ,
God_Is_Truth
The crucifixion was ordained by God. It provided redemption for man and was thus not 'evil'. In another sense, it was evil for humanity to kill the God-Man. It was carried out by wicked men.
Acts 4 NIV "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to CONSPIRE against your holy servant Jesus, whom youo anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."
I think we agree on this passage. God ordained this, but was not coercive in the life of Judas or the leaders. They crucified Him by their own will and are thus responsible/culpable. If any individual abstained from killing Him, God would have used another individual/group to ensure redemption took place.
This verse refers to a specific act of predestination (general terms= atonement, rather than predict or predestine every detail or individual leading up to it). We cannot extrapolate to say this verse means that God ordains/predestines every moral and mundane choice in the universe.
Godrulz
The inescapable conclusion to your "satan made himself" theory is that his will was INSUFFICIENT to PERFORM.
God, having made Lucifer, endowed him with a WILL THAT WAS SHORT.
It is a nice little fairy tale you have dreamt up for Lucifer/Satan but the creation of WILL can only be placed upon GOD.
IF said WILL was truly FREE it should have been able to PRODUCE a result OTHER THAN SIN.
Since said "free will" has not produced anything OTHER THAN SIN, it IS NOT even remotely FREE.
The inescapable conclusion to your "satan made himself" theory is that his will was INSUFFICIENT to PERFORM.
God, having made Lucifer, endowed him with a WILL THAT WAS SHORT.
It is a nice little fairy tale you have dreamt up for Lucifer/Satan but the creation of WILL can only be placed upon GOD.
IF said WILL was truly FREE it should have been able to PRODUCE a result OTHER THAN SIN.
Since said "free will" has not produced anything OTHER THAN SIN, it IS NOT even remotely FREE.
Arminianism upholds orthodox, Christian teaching on the attributes and character of God and salvation. Unitarianism is a blatantly false religion that is diametrically opposed to Calvinism or Arminianism.
P.S. I like and respect Spurgeon, the Prince of Preachers.
Semi-Pelagianism is not the same as raw Pelagianism (who is often misrepresented). God was grieved, not surprised by the Fall. The alternative to this type of creation is contrary to the love and wisdom of God (robots vs relationship/love/freedom).
Dr. Gregory Boyd affirms all the great truths about God. His Baptist denomination does not agree with his open theology, but recognizes that he is still within the confines of biblical Christianity (the nature of creation and the future are not attacks on the attributes of God).
God_Is_Truth
New member
i take it that means you still disagree with my reasoning?
John Reformed
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Give me a break! You guys "say" that you affirm the great truths about God's attributes, but upon examination, we find that you have redefined and watered them down. Omniscience, for example no longer includes God's perfect knowledge of things which are to be, which implies that His ability to foreknow is imperfect.
I warn you fellows...you are standing on a slippery slope.
Deuteronomy 32:35 - Their foot shall slide in due time.
The above text was expounded on by Jonathon Edwards. The following is an excert from "Sinners in the hand of an angry God".
1. That they were always exposed to destruction; as one that stands or walks in slippery places is always exposed to fall. This is implied in the manner of their destruction coming upon them, being represented by their foot sliding. The same is expressed, Psalm 73:18. "Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction."
2. It implies, that they were always exposed to sudden unexpected destruction. As he that walks in slippery places is every moment liable to fall, he cannot foresee one moment whether he shall stand or fall the next; and when he does fall, he falls at once without warning: Which is also expressed in Psalm 73:18, 19. "Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction: How are they brought into desolation as in a moment!"
3. Another thing implied is, that they are liable to fall of themselves, without being thrown down by the hand of another; as he that stands or walks on slippery ground needs nothing but his own weight to throw him down.
4. That the reason why they are not fallen already, and do not fall now, is only that God's appointed time is not come. For it is said, that when that due time, or appointed time comes, their foot shall slide. Then they shall be left to fall, as they are inclined by their own weight. God will not hold them up in these slippery places any longer, but will let them go; and then at that very instant, they shall fall into destruction; as he that stands on such slippery declining ground, on the edge of a pit, he cannot stand alone, when he is let go he immediately falls and is lost.
Jonathon Edwards personifies the antispiritual hatred of others that rules mens hearts.
He RAILS against SINNERS while HE IS ONE himself.
IF said predeterministic SINNERS are doomed WHY BOTHER preaching to them? They cannot do ANYTHING about it anyway.
And if THE ELECT are DIVINELY SLATED to be saved why the need to SCARE THE HELL out of them?
It is LOVE that "attracts" people to God. Perfect love CASTS OUT fear.
He RAILS against SINNERS while HE IS ONE himself.
IF said predeterministic SINNERS are doomed WHY BOTHER preaching to them? They cannot do ANYTHING about it anyway.
And if THE ELECT are DIVINELY SLATED to be saved why the need to SCARE THE HELL out of them?
It is LOVE that "attracts" people to God. Perfect love CASTS OUT fear.
All views of omniscience recognize that God's knowledge is perfect. The issue is what are the possible objects of God's knowledge. To know future contingencies as a certainty before they happen is not a deficiency in omniscience. It is correctly knowing reality as it is distinguishing possibilities from certainties/actualities.
It is a logical contradiction and absurdity for God to make a square circle at the same time or make a rock so heavy He cannot lift it. God can do all that is doable, not that which is absurd. This is not a limit on His omnipotence, but the reality of God and the universe. Likewise, it is a logical contradiction for God to foreknow future free will choices as a certainty trillions of years ago. This takes some thought, but stands up to scrutiny. If you deny this, you either negate free will (which is typical of Calvinists) or affirm that God controls everything and is directly responsible for evil.
I am suggesting your understanding of the future and foreknowledge is deficient, and that the Open View of omniscience (God knows all that is logically possible for Him to know) is defensible. Many books have been written about this, so do not expect to understand it from a few amateur posts.
It is a logical contradiction and absurdity for God to make a square circle at the same time or make a rock so heavy He cannot lift it. God can do all that is doable, not that which is absurd. This is not a limit on His omnipotence, but the reality of God and the universe. Likewise, it is a logical contradiction for God to foreknow future free will choices as a certainty trillions of years ago. This takes some thought, but stands up to scrutiny. If you deny this, you either negate free will (which is typical of Calvinists) or affirm that God controls everything and is directly responsible for evil.
I am suggesting your understanding of the future and foreknowledge is deficient, and that the Open View of omniscience (God knows all that is logically possible for Him to know) is defensible. Many books have been written about this, so do not expect to understand it from a few amateur posts.
Z Man
New member
The point is, as you so clearly said in your last few sentences, is that there have to be books written to explain the thought of God limiting His own foresight, because that doctrine cannot be found in scripture. You guys have to make this stuff up and write volumes of book on this garbage because no where does it state in scripture that God does not know the future or has chosen to limit His knowledge of it therein. Thus, the Open Theists have to go and write books on the "thoughts" concerning an open view, and make all this mumbo jumbo stuff up.
It's not Scriptural.
Isaiah 46:8-10
"Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors. Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
John Reformed
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By “future contingencies” I take it to mean that God, based upon His wisdom and knowledge, knows that there is a likelihood that this, that or another thing may will be the result of any particular occurrence. Therefore, He has plan A, B and C to deal with them when they come up. What is your foundation for this doctrine?
Why would it be that free will would confound God’s ability to foresee the future? It seems to me that perfect foresight would provide perfect knowledge. Of course my theology is not based on foresight per se.
As Ronald Regan used to say, “There you go again”. Shrinking God down to where you can get a handle on Him. Shame!