Does Calvinism limit God?
- Thread starter Poly
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God most certaintly predestined the death and resurrection of Christ to provide an atonement. It is an assumption that this was a certainty in God's mind trillions of years ago. He always knew of the possibility of redemption if He was going to create moral agents that could chose good or evil. The plan was implemented and actualized in space-time history after the Fall.
The fact that God predestines some things (first/second coming, atonement, Revelation judgments, etc.) does not mean that He predestines every choice in the universe. This is the logical fallacy of arguing from the specific to the general without grounds....hasty generalization= basing a general statement on too small a sample...building general rules from exceptional situations...
this verse, in context, states that the atonement was part of God's predestined plan that He would bring to pass (regardless of man's choices...it does not specify every minute, irrelevant detail leading up to it= assumption that is not necessary for the goal)...this does not mean that He predestines what I have for breakfast every day. A prooftext out of context is a pretext.
While the death of Christ is evil in a sense, it does not mean that God was the one who crucified the Son. He laid down His life for a higher good out of love for man. This was not evil, but a voluntary sacrifice to reconcile man. It is not in the same category as unmitigated evil like the slaughter or rape of innocents.
What post was that quote from?
He is powerful enough to ensure to outcome of any event He intends to bring to pass. e.g. the judgment of a nation or the resurrection of the Savior.
He choses not to force people into heaven or hell (smaller does not believe in hell for man), since morality cannot be righteously coerced. Relationship vs robotics is how He choses to govern. He could have created a universe with no free will, but He did not. He could have stopped Hitler, but He did not immediately. If He wants to ensure I eat eggs tomorrow, He would have to forcefully intervene in nature and override my will. He generally does not do this, unless it is wise or necessary to do so.
God governs free agents with moral law and persuasion. Inanimate objects are under a law of cause and effect, while animals are ruled by instinct. Coercion is not the highest good of God and the universe.
Z Man
New member
No one is saying God is evil. All I'm saying is that He uses it to show His glory. Just because God created Satan doesn't mean God is automatically evil. God doesn't do evil - Satan does! He's the one running around rebelling against God and destroying people's lives. Satan's responsible for his own evil. However, God created him for this very reason. And that doesn't mean God does evil.
I'm not saying that God is evil!!! He uses evil to bring about a greater good. That greater good is the self-exaltation of Himself; the display of His glory!
No duh. I didn't say that. The bible says He was slain before the foundation of the world. That means He was slain before the Garden of Eden was even created!
Because you blatantly deny what the verse says. You said that it does not mean what it says; that Christ was not slain before the foundation of the world. I don't know how you interpret the verse to read that when it clearly says:
Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world.
Godrulz,
In addition to the verse John has asked that you explain concerning God ordaining the most evil act in the world, explain this verse as well:
In Matthew 21:42, Jesus answers a parable to the Pharisee's by quoting from Psalms 118:22, 23. The verse goes like this:
Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?"
Of course, the Pharisee's were not too happy about all this because Jesus pretty much told them that God, the very God whom they professed to worship and pay their "religious" respects to, has made them reject the chief cornerstone, that being Jesus. Jesus was telling them that He was the chief cornerstone that they were rejecting, making Himself to be God. And even though they think they were doing God a service by harassing Jesus for declaring Himself God, Jesus told them that they reject Him because it was God's doing. They didn't like that too much.
So Godrulz, how do you explain all of that? God made the Pharisee's reject Christ; anyone who rejects the chief cornerstone do so because it was God's doing. That verse alone destroy's your "God-can't-infringe-the-rights-of-man" theology. It's not our will that dictate's; it's His.
Here's something else to chew on for a while:
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
God_Is_Truth
New member
but don't you believe he's just doing what he was predestined by God to do?
the BOOK is what's from the foundation of the world, not the slaying of the Lamb of God. are you suggesting that Jesus was in fact slain twice, at the creation of the world AND at the cross? :shocked:
well that would be the king james version and since we all know what a good job he did at translating :chuckle: perhaps we should look at other versions.
NIV Isaiah 45
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD , do all these things.
NASB
Isaiah 45
7
The One (1) forming light and (2) creating darkness,
Causing well-being and (3) creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.
NLT
Isaiah 45
7I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.
clearly the context of the passage is not evil, but disaster/calamity. these things are not inherently "evil". evil is what is contrary to God's own will. how could God do something contrary to his own will? is he schitzo now?
God did not create Satan; He created Lucifer. Lucifer became Satan through his prideful will.
GIT is correct that the prooftexts about 'evil' are related to disasters, not moral evil. A Hebrew word study and look at the consensus of commentaries would show that moral evil is not attributed to God. 1) translate accurately 2) interpret correctly.
GIT is correct that the prooftexts about 'evil' are related to disasters, not moral evil. A Hebrew word study and look at the consensus of commentaries would show that moral evil is not attributed to God. 1) translate accurately 2) interpret correctly.
Z Man
New member
GIT,
You're kidding right? Now I know you're not stupid, so please tell me that you do not believe that the Book of Life was SLAIN from the foundation of the world!
Stop avoiding the obvious. It clearly states that the Book of Life is the Lamb's, who was SLAIN from the foundation of the world. The Lamb was slain, not a book. It's disheartening to see how you guys go to such great lengths to avoid and deny scripture all in the name of upholding man's free will. It's not only disheartening, but quite dispicable as well. God's Word deserves a little bit more respect than that.
First of all, I did not use the KJV; that was from the ASV (American Standard Version). And again, stop avoiding the issue. Don't just pick and choose what you like, all the while avoiding the overall context. That verse in Isaiah from God Himself clearly states that He is the one who creates, not commits, but creates calamity/disaster/bad times/evil. There is a difference between "creating" and "committing". No one is saying God does evil, but He clearly stated that He did create it.well that would be the king james version and since we all know what a good job he did at translating :chuckle: perhaps we should look at other versions.
NIV Isaiah 45
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD , do all these things.
NASB
Isaiah 45
7
The One (1) forming light and (2) creating darkness,
Causing well-being and (3) creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.
NLT
Isaiah 45
7I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.
clearly the context of the passage is not evil, but disaster/calamity. these things are not inherently "evil". evil is what is contrary to God's own will. how could God do something contrary to his own will? is he schitzo now?
And secondly, to state that calamity and disasters and bad things are not the same as evil is ludicris. So I guess calamity, disasters, and "bad things" would be good? :ha:
Just another one of the Open Theists tricks to deny obvious, blatantly clear scripture to support their man centered religion. Please.... I know you can do better than this GIT.
You see, the Bible disproves your theology all together, and it's funny to see you guys fumble around with what you think it really says. Even going to great lengths to say that a Book was slain, and that calamity, "bad things", and disasters aren't evil!
:darwinsm:
You guys crack me up!
Z Man
New member
Hey Godrulz,
Thanks for avoiding an explanation for Matthew 21:42, and for defining evil as not to include calamity, disasters, or "bad things". Oh, and by the way, thanks for pretty much avoiding the context of most of my previous posts. It doesn't surprise me though, this type of "hiding" game you play. You do it all the time. And I can see why. I mean, if I believed in free will, and I was shown all of these passages of scripture that clearly proved my theology to be false, I would try to run and hide or come up with an off the wall interpretation of scripture too! Oh, wait a minute, no I wouldn't. Hmmm.. I guess that's why I believe in the TULIP theology today, because I didn't run or shun away from what the Scriptures so clearly say regarding God's Soveriegnty and Election! I took those Scriptures and I faced them head on, studying in context of the whole Word. I compared the verses I thought proved my point, but when I took those other controvesial verses that I have been presenting to you guys head on, I realized that I could do nothing but surrender to what the Word of God says. I tried to overcome it, interpret it differently, or somehow ignore the verses altogether, but I always stumbled upon another verse that seemed to contridict how I interpreted the last one I thought I had succeeded in conquering.
I realized that instead of avoiding and denying what the Scriptures really say, you just have to surrender to it. And when you do, oh the wonderful glory of God and His amazing Grace that is displayed before your mind's eye! His Sovereignty never looked any better! And the Scriptures have never been any clearer!
John Reformed
New member
I would appreciate an answer to my question (if, indeed, you have an answer).
Allow me to preface my Q by saying that God is NOT the authour of evil. Herod, Pilate, the Jews and Gentiles (those who participated in the murder of Christ) were not compelled against their wills. Just the opposite! They simply and eagerly followed their heart's desire, which was to rid the world of this obnoxious and dangerous threat to the status quo. Little did they know that, in actuality, they were acting in accordance with God's eternal plan.
Was the crucifixion (an evil act) ordained by God to be carried out by (wicked) men?
You stated "He does not set up or cause evil (this is blasphemous) for His glory.)
Please reconcile Acts 4: 27,28 with your charge of blasphemy.
God_Is_Truth
New member
you missed my point again. the Lamb was slain but the phrase "from the foundation of the world" is in reference ot the book, not the word "slain".
the book of life is what's from the foundation of the world, not the slaying of the Lamb. you however have a problem if you believe that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world because this either means that Jesus was slain twice (foundation and cross), just once at the foundation and thus NOT at the cross (i hope you dont believe that), or that the phrase does not mean that the Lamb was literally slain at the foundation of the world.
again, it's not that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. the phrase is in reference to the book of life which was "from the foundation of the world". the phrase "of the Lamb that was slain" is in reference to the book of life.
you could thus rewrite the verse like this "the book of life (of the lamb slain) from the foundation of the world."
see the difference?
my mistake, but still bad wording.
God created the potential for evil. it was man's fault that creation fell at the fall of man. we had dominion over the earth, so when we fell and were cursed, so was all of creation which resulted in natural disasters, calamity, etc. these things are not God's fault. God created this world with the potential for these evils. but he does not usually create them himself. there are exceptions but they are almost always (haven't looked too deeply) a form of judgement. i.e. the flood, parting of the sea for moses and collapsing it on pharoah, opening of the earth to swallow up men etc. these are judgements and thus perhaps are perceived as evil by the men who are being judged, but they are not actually evil since judgement is not evil.
if open theism was man centered then i wouldn't hold it. if it was unbiblical, i wouldn't hold it either. i find it to be the most biblical, personally, or else i wouldn't hold it.
it was predestined
God_Is_Truth
New member
i seem to recall someone in the 4th century a.d. holding the view. can't remember who though. of course calvinism wasn't the view of the original church either. it came about at the reformation.
Z Man
New member
Ok, look... if you're just going to rewrite scripture the way you see fit, so it fits your theology, then why don't you just make up your own "Open Theism" bible version? As long as you do not take the Word and the Scriptures for what they say, then there is no possible way you will ever understand what I believe. Because what I believe rest solely on the teaching of the Scriptures. Time and time again you guys ask for proof; we show it through Scripture, and you dismiss it, ignore it, or come up with an entirely different wording of what the original text was implying all together! The lack of respect that Open Theists have for Scripture is very disturbing and displeasing.
Revelations 13:8 clearly states that the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world. Show the verse to any english teacher or professor and they will tell you that the word "from" after slain is directly referring to the word slain itself, not Book of Life. Common sense GIT... I didn't think you were that ignorant. And I can't believe that you believe in free will so much that you are willing to deny Scripture to preserve that very thought. I'm very disappointed.
See what I mean? Why don't you just do us all a favor and go write your own version of the Bible GIT.
HELLO! MCFLY!!! ANYONE THERE!!!
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL. I am Jehovah, that DOETH all these things.
God said Himself that He directly creates evil/calamity/darkness/"bad times". He creates those things HIMSELF.
When you write your own version of the Bible, you can toss that verse if you'd like. But until you do, DO NOT ignore or try to perverse the meaning of this verse like you did with the one in Revelations. Enough is enough. How far will you go in denying Scripture to prove your point?
What evil did Job ever do? How about Esau? And what about Jesus Himself? Why did God predestine these individuals to go through such hell? None of these people deserved judgement, yet they were all recipients of evil/calamity/"bad times" that God created Himself precisely for these individuals.
When a woman is raped, it's for a purpose. When a person is murdered, it's for a purpose. When someone is going through such "bad times", it's for a purpose. In all things, may God be glorified. After Job went through such trials, he came out a better man. Suffering and sorrow is an integral part of life. And God is going to make sure that we all get our share. He's predestined "bad times" for us all. He alone creates good and evil. He creates the light and the darkness. Jehovah Himself declared that He created all these things. To God be the glory forever and ever!
Most biblically??? How so??? You don't even believe the Bible as the final authority concerning TRUTH! You blatantly deny every passage of scripture that I present to prove that your theology is wrong!
The only "bible" you believe in is the one you have written in your head.
Swordsman
New member
I just came across this site and it contains some of the history of Open Theism. It seems to have derived from the Wesleyan/Arminian thinking.
Click Here
And the reformation isn't where the doctrines that Calvinism follows became anew. Calvinism is only a rehashing of the teachings of Augustine of Hippo and the Apostle Paul (1st century church), not to mention the rest of the Biblical authors. His theology is a systematic approach to the promise, covenant, and providence teachings of the grace of God found throughout the Scriptures.
John Reformed
New member
Spurgeon was right. There is no covenient stopping place between arminianism and unitarianism.
God_Is_Truth
New member
here is an excerpt from a bible search page with Revelation 13:8
pay CLOSE attention to the footnotes.
Revelation 13:8 :: New International Version (NIV)
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Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.[1]
Footnotes
13:8 Or written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain
© Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
All rights reserved worldwide
Revelation 13:8 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB)
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Revelation 13
8 All who (1) dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone (2) whose name has not been [1] written (3) from the foundation of the world in the (4) book of life of (5) the Lamb who has been slain.
Footnotes
Or written in the book...slain from the foundation of the world
you see? i am not mistaken in my writing here. it is the book of life that is from the foundation of the world. not the writing of the names and NOT the slaying of the Lamb. the book of life has existed from the foundation of the world. that's all it's saying. i am not rewriting scripture. i'm just telling you what it plainly says.
neither the NASB or the NJIV uses the word "evil". i am justified in saying that "evil" is a bad translation.
why can't you accept that the word is NOT best translated evil?
mcfly hehe
evil was done to Job but NOT by God himself. it was clearly done by Satan. what did Esau do? giving up his birthright? that was his fault. Jesus went through it on our behalf willingly as to provide a means of salvation for every man and woman on earth.
he didn't. Job went through it because of Satan challenging God, Esau i'm not sure what you are talking about and Jesus willinly and purposefully.
no, God didn't do it. Satan did it to Job, Jesus did it willingly and by himself and i'm not sure what you are referring to with Esau.
bringing the results of something like that to a good purpose is NOT the same as determining that the thing should happen in the first place. God works all things together for good. he doesn't force people to be raped, but brings those situations together for good results and for good purposes.
do you really want to believe in a God who predestines women to be raped? what a horrible thought! :shocked:
i agree. but note, you said AFTER the trial. God used the trial's effects to make Job a better man.
i'm sure that helps you get sleep at night :doh:
did i touch a nerve? sorry
i do not deny the truth of the bible. i do not deny any verse or passage or chapter or whatever. i do believe the bible is the final authority concerning truth which is exactly why i hold to open theism.
God bless.
God_Is_Truth
God_Is_Truth
New member
yes, i do believe that open theism is a subset of armianism (sp?).
did Augustine preach unconditional predestination of men to hell?
and i don't believe Paul did either, although i understand how one can think that by his letters. i just disagree with that understanding.
Swordsman
New member
I will point you to this link. An excerpt from one of Augustine's sermons.
Paul is speaking to the church in Thessalonica about the unrighteous.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Their condemnation is planned (predestined) for them already.
Peter spoke of it too..... warning against false teachers.
2 Peter 2:12
But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
They were "made to be caught and destroyed."
John Reformed
New member
"did Augustine preach unconditional predestination of men to hell?"
One thing for is for sure...He certainly would come down hard on "warmed over" pelagianism.
Do you limited sovereigntists believe that God was surprised by Adam and Eve's defection to His (God's) enemy? Afterall, if he had been reasonably certain that they would fall, would'nt it have been best to scub the 1st eternal plan and substitute a new and improved eternal plan?
The more I learn of your theology, the smaller and weaker your god appears. But, I guess when one sets out to create God in the image of man one is bound to be on a down-grade.
I pity you. This is not the gospel which Paul preached.
One thing for is for sure...He certainly would come down hard on "warmed over" pelagianism.
Do you limited sovereigntists believe that God was surprised by Adam and Eve's defection to His (God's) enemy? Afterall, if he had been reasonably certain that they would fall, would'nt it have been best to scub the 1st eternal plan and substitute a new and improved eternal plan?
The more I learn of your theology, the smaller and weaker your god appears. But, I guess when one sets out to create God in the image of man one is bound to be on a down-grade.
I pity you. This is not the gospel which Paul preached.
God_Is_Truth
New member
interesting.
it's not specific, but general.
made to be caught is in reference to the natural brute which is what the people were like. i don't think we can make the jump to having the people be made specifically and for the sole purpose of being caught and destroyed.