Does Calvinism limit God?

[1Way]

• Z Man – You cower from a direct response to Jonah 3.10 and the potter and the clay of Jeremiah, and then act like I’m not objective with other scripture that you feel may challenge/overturn my view. Not a good foot to step forward with, please wipe your feet before spreading so much ...
  
  I am not stuck on any single text or teaching. I am stuck on conforming faith to the entire word of God and not manmade tradition. If anything, you have demonstrated your unwillingness to conform your faith to God’s word on this issue. I have not even stressed the potter and the clay passage which flat out teaches divine repentance from what God thought and or said He would do, which also happens to be one of the most influential and central passages for the closed view. So please don’t mention biblical inconsistency so flippantly.
  
  I have responded to this criticism of yours before, and I wonder why you don’t remember it. I even showed two very similar passages where God says “how it is” that He does not repent, and then on both sides of that verse, God is repenting.
  
  If you are a man of understanding and are not toying with obfuscating the issues because of how damaging my point is for the closed view, then please inform us of my understanding of this seeming contradiction.
  
  If you do not remember for sure, then that is fine, I will gladly speak for myself, but it is discouraging when you answer someone who you “assume” is sincerely wanting the answers, but then after he gets the answers, they are forgotten or discarded.
  
  I appreciate honest and sincere discussions, they tend to be way more productive, I will not willingly play “answer the same question” 10, 20, 50 times etc.
  
  Oh, and by the way, did you know that in your scripture list, you used for support of the closed view(!), one of the most central, if not the most central open view explanations for the way God takes care of yet future things?
  
  Between “the potter and the clay”, and concerning “things not yet done”, the closed view is without excuse, it is biblically bankrupt.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by 1Way

• Z Man – You cower from a direct response to Jonah 3.10

• 
  I've already given my explanation. Surely you remember, no? Of course you do, because you go on to say yourself, in a reply towards me:
  
  If you do not remember for sure, then that is fine, I will gladly speak for myself, but it is discouraging when you answer someone who you “assume” is sincerely wanting the answers, but then after he gets the answers, they are forgotten or discarded.
  
  I appreciate honest and sincere discussions, they tend to be way more productive, I will not willingly play “answer the same question” 10, 20, 50 times etc.
  
  You can't be that much of a hypocrite.....
  
  or could you... :think:
  
  

  ...and the potter and the clay of Jeremiah, and then act like I’m not objective with other scripture that you feel may challenge/overturn my view. Not a good foot to step forward with, please wipe your feet before spreading so much ...
  
  I am not stuck on any single text or teaching. I am stuck on conforming faith to the entire word of God and not manmade tradition. If anything, you have demonstrated your unwillingness to conform your faith to God’s word on this issue. I have not even stressed the potter and the clay passage which flat out teaches divine repentance from what God thought and or said He would do, which also happens to be one of the most influential and central passages for the closed view. So please don’t mention biblical inconsistency so flippantly.
  
  I have responded to this criticism of yours before, and I wonder why you don’t remember it. I even showed two very similar passages where God says “how it is” that He does not repent, and then on both sides of that verse, God is repenting.
  
  If you are a man of understanding and are not toying with obfuscating the issues because of how damaging my point is for the closed view, then please inform us of my understanding of this seeming contradiction.
  
  If you do not remember for sure, then that is fine, I will gladly speak for myself, but it is discouraging when you answer someone who you “assume” is sincerely wanting the answers, but then after he gets the answers, they are forgotten or discarded.
  
  I appreciate honest and sincere discussions, they tend to be way more productive, I will not willingly play “answer the same question” 10, 20, 50 times etc.
  
  Oh, and by the way, did you know that in your scripture list, you used for support of the closed view(!), one of the most central, if not the most central open view explanations for the way God takes care of yet future things?
  
  Between “the potter and the clay”, and concerning “things not yet done”, the closed view is without excuse, it is biblically bankrupt.

All talk and no walk. Not once did you even attempt to answer my challenge in which I asked how you reconciled the scriptures I presented with your false view of God, which is limited by a few verses taken out of context in relation to the whole bible.

I'm not surprised. That's typical from you anyways...

 

[lmwal931]

i think you are making something terribly complicated that even a child can understand. accept JESUS in your heart and you shall be saved. this should prompt you and give you a desire to learn more about the SAVIOUR. it is a wonderful journey. JESUS gives you hope. jesus gives you free will. you learn these things by going to church, reading the bible, and welcoming the HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[lmwal931]

you have free will to accept GOD or to reject him. that is obvious. once you have accepted JESUS in your heart, you have begun a great journey. once you have sipped a small cup of HIS hope you wii never thirst again for hope. soon you realize, there is no othey way. i love to tell the story..........

 

[godrulz]

Zman: Many of your verses are favorite ones to support Open Theism. We must avoid interpreting them through the filter of a pre-conceived theology.

 

[1Way]

The way of obfuscation and petty strife is not good

The way of obfuscation and petty strife is not good

Z Man – As to the whole closed theism challenge of Jonah 3.10 and Jer 18 1-10, you pretended like you understood what I was asking, only thing is that you NEVER answered the challenge/question, never. I had to ask you like 4-5 times in a row to actually respond to the challenge, and every time I had to keep qualifying and holding your hand, drawing you pictures, in a vein attempt at getting you to stop circumventing what I was plainly asking you to do. In the end, you didn’t even come close to a cogent response.

Now, you put it all off like as though I was just asking for your “understanding” of the text in question, you said

I've already given my explanation. Surely you remember, no? Of course you do, ...

which is not according to what I asked of you about that verse. I asked you to 1) plainly show from scripture why the text should not be taken literally, and then after doing so, 2) replace the literal words with the proper figurative speech. I even demonstrated the entire process for you with an example that you said you understood and appreciated.(!!) Yet even with that much assistance, you remain unable or unwilling to answer my challenge question.

Secondly, you got the entire first part of your post all wrong. Here is what you said

(issue #1, your lack of responding cogently to the closed theist challenge)
I've already given my explanation. Surely you remember, no? Of course you do, because you go on to say yourself, in a reply towards me:

(issue #2, I already responded to your closed view proof texts.)
If you do not remember for sure, then that is fine, I will gladly speak for myself, but it is discouraging when you answer someone who you “assume” is sincerely wanting the answers, but then after he gets the answers, they are forgotten or discarded.

I appreciate honest and sincere discussions, they tend to be way more productive, I will not willingly play “answer the same question” 10, 20, 50 times etc.

You can't be that much of a hypocrite.....

or could you...

Those were two separate issues you are trying to confound together. The first was my claim that you never responded directly to the closed theist challenge. But the second part was were you asked to me respond to your verses and I said I have already done that sufficiently in the past and asked you to remember my answer if you could. And you just rolled them both together like they were the same thing.

I remember your responses to the closed view challenge, it just happened in the last few days! You did everything but respond according to what I asked. It was a complete fiasco on your part.

Also, I have answered you about these sorts of questions, so, if you are not obfuscating all the more, I’ll ask you again, do you remember my answers to these sorts of passages or not? Or are you one of those types who you can answer them over and over again and they never get it?

Please stop the personal affront business, you and I have covered enough ground to slip into mud slinging when we could be doing serious bible study and such instead. Let’s square this off neatly and get to it already and then “hopefully” (key word, hopefully) next time you won’t be asking me to repeat my answers to you again and again.

All talk and no walk, that is you Z, not me, I already answered your questions as I exposed in the quote where you then say that I avoided your question. If you make me copy and paste these responses I will, but for glory sakes, stop the petty personal affront and deal.

 

[Z Man]

Re: The way of obfuscation and petty strife is not good

Re: The way of obfuscation and petty strife is not good

Originally posted by 1Way

Z Man – As to the whole closed theism challenge of Jonah 3.10 and Jer 18 1-10, you pretended like you understood what I was asking, only thing is that you NEVER answered the challenge/question, never. I had to ask you like 4-5 times in a row to actually respond to the challenge, and every time I had to keep qualifying and holding your hand, drawing you pictures, in a vein attempt at getting you to stop circumventing what I was plainly asking you to do. In the end, you didn’t even come close to a cogent response.

I answered your question bud. The problem, as you see it, is that I did not answer the question the way YOU believe to be correct. And if you consider your answer to be the only correct answer there is, then there is no way I will ever be able to answer your questions correctly. I take the whole bible into context, where as, you do not. Your lack of a reply regarding reconciling the scriptures I presented to refute yours that say God does repent proves just that.

Now, you put it all off like as though I was just asking for your “understanding” of the text in question, you said which is not according to what I asked of you about that verse. I asked you to 1) plainly show from scripture why the text should not be taken literally, and then after doing so, 2) replace the literal words with the proper figurative speech. I even demonstrated the entire process for you with an example that you said you understood and appreciated.(!!) Yet even with that much assistance, you remain unable or unwilling to answer my challenge question.

Secondly, you got the entire first part of your post all wrong. Here is what you said Those were two separate issues you are trying to confound together. The first was my claim that you never responded directly to the closed theist challenge. But the second part was were you asked to me respond to your verses and I said I have already done that sufficiently in the past and asked you to remember my answer if you could. And you just rolled them both together like they were the same thing.

I remember your responses to the closed view challenge, it just happened in the last few days! You did everything but respond according to what I asked. It was a complete fiasco on your part.

Also, I have answered you about these sorts of questions, so, if you are not obfuscating all the more, I’ll ask you again, do you remember my answers to these sorts of passages or not? Or are you one of those types who you can answer them over and over again and they never get it?

Please stop the personal affront business, you and I have covered enough ground to slip into mud slinging when we could be doing serious bible study and such instead. Let’s square this off neatly and get to it already and then “hopefully” (key word, hopefully) next time you won’t be asking me to repeat my answers to you again and again.

All talk and no walk, that is you Z, not me, I already answered your questions as I exposed in the quote where you then say that I avoided your question. If you make me copy and paste these responses I will, but for glory sakes, stop the petty personal affront and deal.

Blah, blah, blah...

You still have not attempted to answer for the biblical scriptures that prove that God does not change, or repent, or that man can ever thwart the purposes of God. All talk, and no walk...

Still waiting...

 

[smaller]

NO one wanted to TOUCH the position that God had already predetermined for THE LAWLESS.

Do GOOD and get BLESSED.

Do BAD and get CURSED.

The EITHER OR was already LAID OUT.

Does this make GOD REPENT????

Never.

GOD THEN MEDIATES what He has already LAID OUT.

IN the DIVINE SCHEMA layout He already said He WILL ALTERNATE between BLESSING and CURSING to the lawless depending on their actions.

ALL actions are ALLOWED. SOME will be cursed.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[1Way]

subjective error and falsifications, verses, I have already answered you

subjective error and falsifications, verses, I have already answered you

An exercise in speaking past each other, what a deal.

Z Man – You said

(1) I answered your question bud. The problem, as you see it, is that I did not answer the question the way YOU believe to be correct. And if you consider your answer to be the only correct answer there is, then there is no way I will ever be able to answer your questions correctly. I take the whole bible into context, where as, you do not. (2) Your lack of a reply regarding reconciling the scriptures I presented to refute yours that say God does repent proves just that.

(1) I am not seeking an answer that agrees with mine. I am seeking an answer that conforms to the scriptures own teachings about not voiding scripture of meaning, which I shared these teachings a long time ago and consistently. You seem unable to meet God’s clear restrictions on how to understand and treat scripture in the case of a simple teaching like Jonah and the Potter and clay, then I accept your profoundly anti-biblical response.

(2) Again you mouth the opposite of the truth. My response was that I already answered you. It is your lack of a cogent response to my previous answer that demonstrates your aversion to the points/arguments already made.

Lastly, like I said, God’s word does say how it is that God does not repent, and also how it is that He does repent! Both. You view does NOTHING to prove that God does not repent, it just supports the open view’s position in the manner in which God does not repent.

Maybe, if we are lucky, you will keep this up for infinity and we will get no where!

All talk and no walk.

If you are able to answer the closed view challenge, then you should do so instead of avoiding it as you have done.

If you already understand my response to your idea that God does not repent, then stop avoiding them and respond already.

Still waiting.

 

[1Way]

to some, ignorance=bliss, to others, understanding & accepting the truth sets us free

to some, ignorance=bliss, to others, understanding & accepting the truth sets us free

Blah, blah, blah... - Z Man

Don't violate nor void scripture, you must replace the words you understand are not literal with the correct meaning from scripture to have the standing to say that the text is non-literal. I demonstrated conformity to this bible restriction against violence and voiding of God’s word and you agreed and appreciated my so doing, yet you then continued to fail to comply with God’s restrictions of righteous handling of scripture concerning the easy verse Jonah 3.10. – 1Way

Blah, blah, blah... - Z Man

I already answered you, don't you remember? - 1Way

Blah, blah, blah... - Z Man

still waiting...

Blah, blah, blah... - Z Man
Blah, blah, blah... - Z Man
Blah, blah, blah... - Z Man
Blah, blah, blah... - Z Man
Blah, blah, blah... - Z Man
Blah, blah, blah... - Z Man

 

[Z Man]

Re: Re: Ya have God’s word, and man’s word,,, the difference is clear

Re: Re: Ya have God’s word, and man’s word,,, the difference is clear

This is all that needs to be said:

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Job 42:1-2
Then Job answered the Lord: "I know that thou can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Psalm 135:6
Whatever the Lord pleases He does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Is 14:24,27
The Lord of Hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand....For the Lord of Hosts has purposed, and who will make it void? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?"

Is 46:9-11
"Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My council shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose, calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my council from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.' "

Is 55:11
"So shall my Word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me void, but is shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the things for which I sent it."

Jer 32:17
" ' Ah Lord God! It is thou who has made the heavens and the earth by thy great power and by thy outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for thee.' "

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"

 

[godrulz]

These verses show that God is omnicompetent (wise, powerful, etc.). They do not have to indicate meticulous control of every detail of the universe. He is not the only moral agent in the universe with genuine, creative freedom. He is infinite and perfect, but that does not mean static and unchanging in every sense (or God would be impersonal and not relational).

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by godrulz

These verses show that God is omnicompetent (wise, powerful, etc.). They do not have to indicate meticulous control of every detail of the universe. He is not the only moral agent in the universe with genuine, creative freedom. He is infinite and perfect, but that does not mean static and unchanging in every sense (or God would be impersonal and not relational).

well put. :thumb:

 

[1Way]

Godrulz – Omnicompetent :thumb:

Most excellent word choice. Very resourceful and creative, may we use it?

Z Man is in denial, he voids scripture of meaning and then acts like he has done nothing wrong. The closed view does violence to God’s word and seeks a pass via Augustine and Edwards or Calvin and other far greater minds than you or I.

I’d rather agree with a poor old obscure farmer in Timbuktu, as long as he rightly understands God’s word.

Closed theists would do better if they first understood and then secondly used the whole bible as the blueprint for their faith. Z’s complete inability to answer the simplest bible conformity challenges remains a travesty to a righteous bible respecting faith in God.

I wonder how Z would like it if we treated his verses like he treated Jonah 3.10?

 

[smaller]

The open viewers have had to let go of some of "their stuff" to not be in denial of the texts that Zman (and others) have posted.

What godrulz has presented (as observed a few posts back) is EXACTLY in agreement with the CLOSED VIEW.

IF God is COMPETENT enough to INSURE the "outcome" of any EVENT it is THE SAME POSITION AS the CLOSED VIEW.

All they are trying to hold onto is that a few minor details God "allows" to "slip through the cracks."

A sparrow does not fall to the ground apart from His Will, so the details that SLIP THROUGH THE CRACKS must be pretty minor eh?

GOD IS POWERFUL ENOUGH TO INSURE THE OUTCOME OF ANY EVENT...

Yet does not KNOW the outcome???

Hello!

Sorry but this is rather laughable.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by 1Way


I wonder how Z would like it if we treated his verses like he treated Jonah 3.10?

Jonah 3:10 this, Jonah 3:10 that....

Give it up man. That one verse should not support your whole theological views.

Godrulz,

I did not present those verses to show that God has meticolous control over everything. I simply presented them to refute 1Way's false claims that God does change. If he would accept those verses, instead of tossing them out and holding on to Jonah 3:10 so tightly, he might better understand Christianity.

1Way,

It's simple, really. Just tell me how you reconcile the verses I presented with the one you hold so dearly important.

 

[1Way]

Closed theists wont touch the bible conformity challenge cause it refutes their view

Closed theists wont touch the bible conformity challenge cause it refutes their view

Z Man - Stop pretending like you don't understand what I have been saying over and over again. You “know” full well that I did a solid job demonstrating how to understand a non-literal text via scripture interpreting scripture with the example of Hatre(d), and how the need for doing so makes perfect biblical sense so as to not violate the scripture nor void the it of meaning.

So naturally now grouchy because you can’t do what you know you should be able to do with Jonah 3.10, a very simple verse. Although you did not express it, if (and oh what a big “if”) you even tried to answer the closed view challenge, you saw that such an attempt was impossible and self refuting for your view. So you just conveniently gave up on even trying to deal with it, and have since attacked me “instead”. Such a grown up, can’t deal uprightly and consistently with God’s word, very sad situation.

I'm not emphasizing any single verse or passage for my theology. I maintain that one’s faith and theology should conform to the entire bible, and that since you can not do that for this one simple verse. So, we are not surprised at your obfuscating and diversionary tactics, after all, you have no idea what the following verse actually means, although the literal message hotly condemns you for being anti-what it plainly says.

• Jon 3:10 Then God saw their works, that
  they turned from their evil way; and
  
  God repented from the disaster that He
  had said He would bring upon them,
  and He did not do it.

I think most any 10 year would do a better job of dealing with the meaning and nature of this verse than what you have presented. But then again, I’m just being reasonable in assuming that God is wiser than me and you, He knows how to say what He meant to say, and He actually said it. And since you nor I have found ANY reasonable alternative to what God actually said and meant, He word stands despite how uneasy that makes you feel.

Here’s a lasting thought for your heart and soul to ponder. I know you don’t like even thinking about God repenting from doing what He said He would do, but God is wiser than you or I, so listen up, God is not going to change His tune when you get to heaven just to match up with your theology.

• Divine repentance is a bible fact. God did
  not do what He said He would do.
  
  Unless God was lying, then that absolutely
  demonstrates a change of mind in God by
  honestly contradicting His “previously
  intended course of action” when He
  reversed the destruction that He said He
  would bring upon them.
  

Bless God, He is true and Z Man false for contradicting God’s word and providing NO reasonable alternative. God’s foreknowledge is not without exception, He honestly changes His mind in accordance to Jer 18 1-10 and many other passages that are also true and also refute closed theism.

 

[Z Man]

1Way,

It's simple, really. Just tell me how you reconcile the verses I presented with the one you hold so dearly important.

 

[1Way]

Z Man - It's really simple to understand, you violate God's word because of your own thinking, so of course you would violate mine.

Deal rightly with God and His word and then maybe...

 

[smaller]

Those verses put up by Z STAND 1way.

Your posturing and posing on "the repenting" of God must by necessity take a lesser position to not violate THE OTHERS.

Your text can DROP into place via many ways.

In other words YOUR UNDERSTANDING is OFF

as it DOES NOT and CANNOT NEGATE a single OTHER WORD of GOD.

You seem to be OK with not touching the BLATANT CONTRADICTIONS.

Here is a hint: They are put there for a purpose.