Does Calvinism limit God?

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DANIEL has somethings to say to EVERY freewiller, especially 1way:

"He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Dan. 4:35

"there was given Him dominion, and glory and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom, that which shall not be destroyed." Dan. 7:14

 

[1Way]

Bible interpretation 101, don't void scripture of meaning, how hard is that?

Bible interpretation 101, don't void scripture of meaning, how hard is that?

God says for us to judge all things, conform your faith to God's word.

This issue is over an easy teaching, I demonstrated an easy proof for the figure of the word hate(d) when used between two or more competing subjects which is bible interpretation 101 simple, yet you folks just will not demonstrate the same sort of biblical conformity.

God's word teaches and demonstrates that He does not do what He said He would do. I am not making it up, God gave His true word on that issue, He did not do what He said He would do, yet you closed theists do not have room for such biblical conformity.

If you can't accept and deal uprightly with a simply bible teaching like God repenting and not doing what He said He would do, then the problem and solution is only clear. Stand corrected now, or stand corrected later. (Hint, it's way better to stand corrected earlier than latter.) Your free will choice.

 

[smaller]

So we THROW OUT Daniel's observations in the process 1way???

"-none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Perhaps NONE is exclusive of YOU???

 

[Z Man]

Re: Bible interpretation 101, don't void scripture of meaning, how hard is that?

Re: Bible interpretation 101, don't void scripture of meaning, how hard is that?

Originally posted by 1Way

God's word teaches and demonstrates that He does not do what He said He would do. I am not making it up, God gave His true word on that issue, He did not do what He said He would do, yet you closed theists do not have room for such biblical conformity.

He didn't do what He said He would do, for example, in the case with Ninevah, not because man made Him, but because God chose to Himself. His plan was to bring repentance to Ninevah, and that's exactly what happened. His will came to pass. Man did not thwart His purpose; God repented because His will came to pass. Ninevah repented and God's threat/wrath was no longer needed against them.

I've explained this so many times to you, and this is the only logical explanation, given the other verses that speak of God not repenting/changing, and the ones in Daniel that Smaller has presented.

1Way,
If you take the whole bible into context, you will see that your doctrine will fall apart...

 

[1Way]

A contradiction, is a contradiction, is a contradiction

A contradiction, is a contradiction, is a contradiction

Z Man - God said the following concerning His
prophesized “yet 40 days destruction of Nineveh”.


He did not do what He said He would do, and He did not do it.

The closed view’s version is

He did _ _ do what He said He would do, and He did _ _ do it.


I can not make the closed view become logical or consistent or reasonable, it violates by way of contradiction God’s word.

 

[smaller]

God had already DETERMINED the state of THE LAWLESS under The LAW.

IF the LAWLESS (to whom The Law was written) repented, they WOULD BE SPARED. IF they did not THEY WOULD BE CURSED.

Here's a HINT. The Lawless are NOT mankind, but the sin that indwells ALL MEN and the EVIL that is PRESENT within ALL men.

The Law is WRITTEN to these things that dwell WITH MEN...

and

The PREDISPOSITION of GOD to these things, that being BLESSINGs or CURSEings.

It is for THESE SAME REASONS that God destroyed the inhabitants of the world with THE FLOOD...the EVIL AND SIN within men (that controlled them) reached the POINT OF CURSE and GOD SEPARATED His Children from the DISOBEDIENCE that He bound ALL MEN with in this wicked and evil generation. (Rom. 11:32)

and

The inhabitants of SODOM with FIRE and BRIMSTONE. A picture of what is TO COME for these things.

So did GOD CHANGE HIS MIND????? NEVER.

This SUPPOSED CHANGE that 1way is so PSYCHO about was in fact PREDETERMINED from the BEGINNING.

BLESSING AND CURSE.

Sometimes I just shake my head in wonder at the stupidity and blindness of people who try to OUTGUESS God and that is MOST of what goes on with the Word and with God.

Men trying to OUTguess...GOD.

We can LOOK at the OVERALL PICTURE of what GOD HAS WROUGHT, but there IS NO PICTURE for GOD HIMSELF.

enjoy!

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[godrulz]

There are 2 motifs in Scripture: God determines some things (creation, incarnation, second coming, judgments, etc.); some things are uncertain and unknown due to free moral choice (whether I will pick my nose right now or not, whether I will live for God or Self = not known from eternity past).

Smaller: I still do not understand where you got your one-string-fiddle teaching about sin. Sin is not a substance or thing. It is a wrong moral choice. Men are responsible and accountable for the wrong or right exercise of their wills. It is not something nebulous back of the will that is coercive or judged apart from the moral agent. The soul that sins is the one that will die (not some sin principle)= Ezekiel.

 

[smaller]

Peace godrulz

We have already went over the freewill drill godrulz and we found it TWO fold. #1, it is a LESSER WILL than God's and #2, by virtue of #1, it is LIMITED as being LESSER to GOD's will.

This also means #3- that by virtue of being LESSER or smaller (pun intended) that God has PRE-emminence OVER said LIMITED will.

To deny any of these is to either limit God (an impossible task) or to argue that YOUR will is GREATER THAN God's. Some of your ilk have tried this foolishness as well. Go figure. Pride will be used by God as well as in JUDGING AND ELIMINATING it when the proper time has come.

Smaller: I still do not understand where you got your one-string-fiddle teaching about sin.

I have repeatedly cited Paul's example from Romans 7:17, 20, & 21. These are the most ELEMENTARY of examples which do CLEARLY STATE that SIN was NOT PAUL, nor was EVIL.

You however do not seem to be able to either read or comprehend, but that only VALIDATES the position since SIN INDWELLING AND EVIL PRESENT can indeed influence THE FLESH. The example Paul gave is VALIDATED by your BLINDNESS to it.

This is also ANOTHER MARK against your supposed "freewill."

Other fine examples are available but if you cannot get a MILK example down you certainly will not get down a swallow of meat example eh???

Sin is not a substance or thing. It is a wrong moral choice.

And you my friend are INCORRECT in this determination. John for example tells us that SIN IS OF THE DEVIL. Being such your determination then makes PEOPLE the DEVIL.

Would you like this to go on record as YOUR EISEGESIS for this item???

It would not surprise me.

Men are responsible and accountable for the wrong or right exercise of their wills.

Again YOU ERR. Every sin INCLUDING BLASPHEMY will NOT BE HELD against MANkind. There are NUMEROUS examples of this in the text AGAIN validating that SIN is not THE SAME AS mankind.

It is not something nebulous back of the will that is coercive or judged apart from the moral agent. The soul that sins is the one that will die (not some sin principle)= Ezekiel.

Satan is said in many places to be able to TAKE PEOPLE at his "will."

Obviously he has influenced YOURS.

enjoy!

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[godrulz]

Romans 7 is about Paul's struggle between the spirit and the flesh in relation to the law. This passage does not negate other clear passages that reveal sin as lawlessness, a wrong moral choice, selfishness, etc. Other verses explicitly show that we are responsible for our choices (Deut.= obedience/blessing; disobedience/curses).

 

[smaller]

I cited SPECIFIC TEXTS godrulz...

not the guesswork GENERALITIES from what is in your mind via the confirmations of your own mind.

Want me to AMPLIFY it for YOU???

Did PAUL say that HE WAS SIN???

Did PAUL say that HE WAS EVIL???

or is this too much of an assault on your MIND???

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by smaller

I cited SPECIFIC TEXTS godrulz...

not the guesswork GENERALITIES from what is in your mind via the confirmations of your own mind.

Want me to AMPLIFY it for YOU???

Did PAUL say that HE WAS SIN???

Did PAUL say that HE WAS EVIL???

or is this too much of an assault on your MIND???

Paul did say he was a sinner (the chief one). God says we are unrighteous apart from Him. Your understanding of sin and sound exegesis of Rom. 7 is lacking in light of other passages. Sin is not a literal substance living in us. Sin is living for Self and the flesh rather than for God as Lord of our lives.

 

[smaller]

Paul said that SIN and EVIL existed WITHin him.

That makes HIS FLESH and those things that DWELT WITHin him "the sinner, eh?

I know this is a little complex to see, but PAUL CLEARLY identified SIN and EVIL as SEPARATE from himself.

"NO LONGER I, but sin that dwells WITH ME."

Paul described it this way because APART FROM THE WORD these things ARE NOT SEEN.

SIN in Paul is REVEALED by THE LAW.

get it?

I doubt it.

NO LONGER I cannot be changed into I.

As a SLAVE of SIN Paul DID NOT SEE THESE THINGS. The CHIEF of sinners MASTERED him, just as IT SPOKE THROUGH PETER.

UNLESS OF COURSE you want to ELABORATE ON HOW PEOPLE ARE THE DEVIL, because this is THE ONLY conclusion you are LEFT WITH.

I know many who do not believe there is a "devil" but that SIN IS OF THE DEVIL and since there IS NO DEVIL sin is merely a BAD MORAL CHOICE by a PERSON, making SAID PERSON the DEVIL.

Sorry to shove your own logic in your face. You keep running from your own conclusions. Stand up to them if this is what you believe.

enjoy!

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[1Way]

:kookoo:

:darwinsm:



some people's kids...

 

[smaller]

Same questions stand for you 1way.

Was PAUL sin?

Was PAUL evil?

Rather than put up little round balls with hands spinning by their closed eyes (hello!) you could PUT UP a reasoned response.

 

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And of course both you and "godrulz" will avoid comparing your supposed freewill with God's like the plague...

One idiot in your camp could not get by the "comparative construct" and ended up trying to make a "defense" of the freewill position by saying his freewill was MORE FREE than God's and then tried to prove it by text. An utter failure of course, but I did appreciate the humor. He didn't think it was so funny.

go figure....

 

[geralduk]

I have found that what many call freedom is NOT what God calls freedom.

Jesus was the freeest man there ever was or will be it coud be argued.
Nor can it be said He did NOTHING that was NOT of a FREE will.
yet with all that His BIRTH,LIFE AND DEATH and ministery was mapped out and was "according to the scriptures"
He did NOTHING of Himself but that "which he saw the FATHER doing that did HE"

Is ANYONE going to or COULD argue then that man has
NO free will?

Yet here too we who are His are called unto good works "preordained from before the foundations of the world"
are WE THEN not FREE because we choose to do GODS will RATHER than our own?

In truth "if the SON shall make you free ye ARE free in deed"!

Therefore if man had NO free will he could NOT then do that which is CONTARY to GODS WILL!

Now soem may then 'argue' how can man go against Gods will?!
If your concept of God is as a TYRANT and an OPRESSOR then you can so 'argue' and in conformity with THAT argument' it IS impossible.
But the SCRIPTURES speak of another GOD entirely.
who made man in HIS OWN IMAGE.
Who then was GIVEN THE SAME liberty as God has which comes by the SAME means.
That LIBERTY is to DO GOOD.
God did NOT give man ANY liberty to DO EVIL.
and so when he does evil he becomes bound by it.
and SUBJECT .
But Jesus came to seeka nd to save that which was lost.
For in truth WHOS will did EVE WHEN SHE ATE of the tree.
JUST her own?

So when God in mercy send us light ;then it is that we ARE ABLE to CHOOSE. and have the ABILITY to once again FREELY CHOOSE between good and evil.
Light and darkness.
But when the light DOES come then we have NO EXCUSE and the penalty will be the more severe if we then in finality reject the light.

Therefore God does NOT violate that which he gave to MAN in the beginning.
Nor has He taken it back.
But teh 'liberty' that men 'rejoice ' in to make thier own choices.
Has its OWN RESPONSABILITIES.
and CONSEQUENCES IN THE CHOICES that are made.


So I see no conflict in the idea of GOD having a FREE will.
and MAN having a FREE will.

the DIFFERENCE being what EACH CHOOSES!

and what EACH SOWS!
and therefore IN WHAT EACH REAPS!

Nor is there in my own mind any conflict with MANS free will and the SOVERIEGNTY OF GOD.

For in the final analysise if man chooses to that which is NOT Gods will; then if need be God can raise even the VERY STONES to do it!
But God is GOD and there is ALWAYS men "who WILL seek FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS rightousness"
"For God will not leave Himself without a witness"

But here is a wonderfull thing!

The WILL of God is that man should LIVE and NOT die.
and that he should inherit eternal LIFE!
and God has CHOSEN the weak and the foolish of this world to confound the strong and the mighty. and it has PLEASED GOD by the foolishness of preaching to save all them that beleiev(what?) THE PREACHING! of the truth.
Therefore I am happy.
and rejoice in God.
that he is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to the knowldge of the truth"
Some foolishly believe then that all will be saved.
Not so.
For God gave men the LIBERTY to CHOOSE FREELY HIS will.
and in TRUE LIBERTY make that decision of hisown free will.
and He has CHOSEN that ALSO and that is HIS will.
That ALL may come to a knowledge of HIM who is the SOVERIEGN of us all.IF MEN WOULD BUT KNOW IT.
BUT IN THIER IGNORANCE and blindness by the devil think of HIM amiss.
Even as it was in the begining.
and in beleiving ther LIE are BLIND to the truth. and choose what is good and evil by thier own reckoning and NOT Gods.
For they know Him not.
But God not willing for them to be ignorant.
"Spoke in sundry times and in divers ways by the prophets,hath in these last days sp[oken to us by His SON.
Whose "LIFE was the LIGHT of men"
That we might KNOW HIM by whom He was sent.
and might come nto that LIBERTY that is of the "sons of God"
But men loving darkness rather than the light would not have Him AS THIER KING.
and so by thier REJECTION it was offered to the GENTILES.
Who even fro
his birth and at HIS death RECOGNISED Him as the "KING OF THE JEWS"

and so we who were once afar off from the covenant HAVE SEEN THE "Light UNTO THE GENTILES"
and have therefore FREELY come to the light and have been "translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Godfs dear SON" and are now then FREEBORN citizens OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. and enjoy that LIBERTY which God had preordained FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD.

 

[1Way]

Ya have God’s word, and man’s word,,, the difference is clear

Ya have God’s word, and man’s word,,, the difference is clear

Question If God is not saying that He repented from what He said He would do, then, what “is He saying When He says” that He repented from doing what He said He would do? (Restated more simply.) What does that verse mean if you deny that God can repent and change His mind?
:think:

Jonah’s Nineveh prophesy
(God’s meaningful open view version)
Jon 3:10
Then God saw their works,
that they turned from their evil way;
and God relented from the disaster
that He had said He would bring upon them,
and He did not do it.

Jonah’s Nineveh prophesy
(Man’s meaningless closed view version)
Jon 3:10
...?... God .?.. their works,
..?.. they turned from their evil way;
and God ....?..... ...?... the disaster
..?.. He .?.. ..?.. He ...?.... ..?.. upon them,
and He .?. .?.. do .?.


It’s amazing and sad how some people void scripture of meaning and replace it with nothing and think nothing of doing so.

 

[smaller]

Peace 1way

You have banged this GOD REPENTS drum for awhile.

Would you consider that THE LAW, which is written to THE LAWLESS allows for either BLESSING or CURSING based on the ACTIVITIES of the LAWLESS.

If you knew who THE LAWLESS were you would stop condemning your neighbors to BURN FOREVER in FIRE...

and you would SEE that "spiritual wickedness" that God PUTS IN THE BALANCES in this wicked and evil generation.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Z Man]

Re: Ya have God’s word, and man’s word,,, the difference is clear

Re: Ya have God’s word, and man’s word,,, the difference is clear

Originally posted by 1Way

Question If God is not saying that He repented from what He said He would do, then, what “is He saying When He says” that He repented from doing what He said He would do? (Restated more simply.) What does that verse mean if you deny that God can repent and change His mind?
:think:

It’s amazing and sad how some people void scripture of meaning and replace it with nothing and think nothing of doing so.

1 Way,

We all know the story of Jonah and Ninevah. You seem to be caught up on this one piece of scripture without taking into consideration the many other parts of scripture that support the view that God does not repent or change in any way. How do you reconcile those verses with your favorite one considering Ninevah? Do you just toss those out?

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Job 42:1-2
Then Job answered the Lord: "I know that thou can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Psalm 135:6
Whatever the Lord pleases He does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Is 14:24,27
The Lord of Hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand....For the Lord of Hosts has purposed, and who will make it void? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?"

Is 46:9-11
"Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My council shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose, calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my council from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.' "

Is 55:11
"So shall my Word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me void, but is shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the things for which I sent it."

Jer 32:17
" ' Ah Lord God! It is thou who has made the heavens and the earth by thy great power and by thy outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for thee.' "

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"

 

[smaller]

Peace geralduk

I have found that what many call freedom is NOT what God calls freedom.

Jesus was the freeest man there ever was or will be it coud be argued.
Nor can it be said He did NOTHING that was NOT of a FREE will.
yet with all that His BIRTH,LIFE AND DEATH and ministery was mapped out and was "according to the scriptures"
He did NOTHING of Himself but that "which he saw the FATHER doing that did HE"

Brave geralduk. You have made a BRILLIANT discovery. Jesus DID NOTHING apart from THE FATHER.

Is ANYONE going to or COULD argue then that man has
NO free will?

Well, let's see geralduk?

IS YOUR WILL AS FREE AS JESUS' freewill???

I say NO. This can be proven multiple ways.

Yet here too we who are His are called unto good works "preordained from before the foundations of the world"
are WE THEN not FREE because we choose to do GODS will RATHER than our own?

'
You did not PRE-ORDAIN your own good works you idiot. You MAY be fortunate enough to actually DO THEM if your flesh master ALLOWS it. At this point your filthy rag righteousness that you use to condemn others to burn in hell for is pretty pathetic. But this is pre-ordained as well.

In truth "if the SON shall make you free ye ARE free in deed"!

Ah, your deeds are FAR FROM FREE. You REVEL in the condemnation of your neighbor. This thing in you that does this is slated for ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, just as those things in YOUR NEIGHBORS are.

As such YOU do not see what FREEDOM is.

Therefore if man had NO free will he could NOT then do that which is CONTARY to GODS WILL!

NO THING is contrary to GOD'S WILL. ALL THINGS serve HIM. Yes, HE is THAT GREAT.

Now soem may then 'argue' how can man go against Gods will?!
If your concept of God is as a TYRANT and an OPRESSOR then you can so 'argue' and in conformity with THAT argument' it IS impossible.
But the SCRIPTURES speak of another GOD entirely.
who made man in HIS OWN IMAGE.
Who then was GIVEN THE SAME liberty as God has which comes by the SAME means.

My God. Where did you pull this out of??? This is about as convoluted a statement as I have seen.

Are you making the case that YOU have the SAME FREE WILL as God and as JESUS CHRIST???

Oh boy!

YES, geralduk can WALK ON WATER and RAISE HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD.....

Oh, and CREATE THE WORLD if he wanted to...

Really geralduk. The only thing your supposed "freewill" has gained you is a serious case of dementia.

That LIBERTY is to DO GOOD.
God did NOT give man ANY liberty to DO EVIL.

GOD HAS BOUND ALL MEN TO DISOBEDIENCE. (Romans 11:32)

WHO? God. GOD HAS BOUND ALL MEN TO DISOBEDIENCE!

and so when he does evil he becomes bound by it.
and SUBJECT .
But Jesus came to seeka nd to save that which was lost.
For in truth WHOS will did EVE WHEN SHE ATE of the tree.
JUST her own?

So when God in mercy send us light ;then it is that we ARE ABLE to CHOOSE. and have the ABILITY to once again FREELY CHOOSE between good and evil.

Here's another one for your supposed "freewill." IF it was TRULY FREE it should be ABLE to PRODUCE a position of SINLESSNESS.

But of course ALL HAVE SIN and ALL HAVE SINNED so the PRODUCTION OF SAID FREEWILL appears to have NOT BEEN FREE ENOUGH to PRODUCE sinlessness....

IN other words IT IS INEFFECTIVE to be FREE. AS such it is NOT FREE.

YOUR FREEWILL DID NOT FREE YOU from your own SIN.

Light and darkness.
But when the light DOES come then we have NO EXCUSE and the penalty will be the more severe if we then in finality reject the light.

Your "freewill" did not SAVE YOU nor did it produce SINLESSNESS.

It would appear that the ONLY PRODUCE of "freewill" is SIN. How good is IT then?

Can you say WORTHless?????

If YOUR FILTHY RAG RIGHTEOUSNESS is the ONLY PRODUCE of "freewill" it should BE DESTROYED.

Therefore God does NOT violate that which he gave to MAN in the beginning.
Nor has He taken it back.
But teh 'liberty' that men 'rejoice ' in to make thier own choices.
Has its OWN RESPONSABILITIES.
and CONSEQUENCES IN THE CHOICES that are made.

Your phoney baloney theory really has NOTHING to do with God.

You are NO DIFFERENT that a COMMON SCIENTIST. The "man of the world" sees only CAUSE and EFFECT.

God is THE CAUSE, but the "man of the world" does not SEE GOD. He says HERE IS MY ACTION and HERE IS THE RESULT of MY action.

Such a man worships HIMSELF as "god."

So I see no conflict in the idea of GOD having a FREE will.
and MAN having a FREE will.

the DIFFERENCE being what EACH CHOOSES!

Then YOUR GOD IS CHOICE. What an idiot.

Common sense DICTATES that YOUR GOD IS CHOICE.

It is CHOICE that SAVES YOU and CHOICE that governs YOU.

and what EACH SOWS!
and therefore IN WHAT EACH REAPS!

Well, let's see where your choice has gotten you.

You HOLD others sins against them. You condemn your neighbor to BURN FOREVER IN FIRE....

This seems to be the action of some little demented god to me.

Nor is there in my own mind any conflict with MANS free will and the SOVERIEGNTY OF GOD.

Well, let's see...God=Agape Love...geralduk=Agape Love....

NOPE. Does not compute.

Your "god" is "choice" and that "choice" is only done IN YOU AND BY YOU.

Your "god" is "choice." I see the results of what your "god" has produced and it is PATHETIC. It is not even worth responding to for the balance of your post.

[snip]

enjoy!

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