ECT Do those who believe MAD believe the Apostle Paul was a liar ?

Interplanner

Well-known member
Faith always has an object; it has no 'merit' in itself; it must access some other kind of merit. We may not like the idea, but Abrham saw Christ's day and he had faith in that, and THAT was imputed to him. That is the official interp of Paul.
 

God's Truth

New member
YOU nor anyone can EARN salvation ! You have bought into a lie.

Abraham BELIEVED i.e. faith before he DID anything.

Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

You have got to be kidding.

You gave scripture that proves faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.



20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.


You ready to believe the truth now and stop preaching your false dead faith alone gospel?
 

God's Truth

New member
There are rewards for the believer but salvation is not a reward....it's a gift.

Jesus says plainly that his reward is with him and that it is eternal life.

Revelations 22:11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.” 12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each person according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


The gift, the reward, the inheritance, the treasure, the crown, the promise…it is all eternal life in the kingdom of God
 

intojoy

BANNED
Banned
Jesus says plainly that his reward is with him and that it is eternal life.

Revelations 22:11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.” 12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each person according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


The gift, the reward, the inheritance, the treasure, the crown, the promise…it is all eternal life in the kingdom of God

Get thee hence


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 

God's Truth

New member
The Bible does NOT say that Abraham was declared righteous by his actions or obedience, but by his FAITH!

Gen 15:1-6 (KJV)
(15:1) After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I [am] thy shield, [and] thy exceeding great reward. (15:2) And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house [is] this Eliezer of Damascus? (15:3) And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. (15:4) And, behold, the word of the LORD [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. (15:5) And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (15:6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

It's completely clear, by you're self-righteous and want to have YOUR works counted.

His faith was accounted as righteousness because of his right actions, his obedience.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."
 

dodge

New member
You have got to be kidding.

You gave scripture that proves faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.



20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.


You ready to believe the truth now and stop preaching your false dead faith alone gospel?

What you are missing is NO ONE can earn their salvation by their works ! IF anyone could earn their salvation then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed as payment for our sin ?

You do know Jesus said in John 14:6 that HE is the truth and faith in Him is the ONLY thing that saves.

Again folks do not obey God to be saved they obey God because they are saved.
 

God's Truth

New member
What you are missing is NO ONE can earn their salvation by their works !

Jesus saves us, and he saves us all on his own. Do you understand that? Jesus saves us all on his own. He does CHOOSE whom he saves and he tells us how to be saved.


IF anyone could earn their salvation then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed as payment for our sin ?

How do you ever get that Jesus dying for our sins means we do not have to obey?

You do know Jesus said in John 14:6 that HE is the truth and faith in Him is the ONLY thing that saves.

Jesus says in that scripture that he is the Way.

You have to do what the Way says to get to the Father.

Again folks do not obey God to be saved they obey God because they are saved.

That is a mantra of many false teachers. It is not from God.
 

dodge

New member
God's Truth;4966330]Jesus saves us, and he saves us all on his own. Do you understand that? Jesus saves us all on his own. He does CHOOSE whom he saves and he tells us how to be saved.

We owed a debt that Jesus paid in full and we can add not one thing to that payment that Jesus paid for, and to think that you can add anything to what is already paid for just means you have no clue of what "it is finished means ".

How do you ever get that Jesus dying for our sins means we do not have to obey?

That is NOT what I have ever said or believe.


Jesus says in that scripture that he is the Way.

You have to do what the Way says to get to the Father.

What we have to do is what Jesus taught us to do for salvation !

Jhn 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Notice that Jesus taught it is not works that save but a single work, which is to believe on Him whom God has sent.


That is a mantra of many false teachers. It is not from God.

No it is what Jesus said when He changed the answer from works to a single work for salvation.
 

God's Truth

New member
We owed a debt that Jesus paid in full and we can add not one thing to that payment that Jesus paid for, and to think that you can add anything to what is already paid for just means you have no clue of what "it is finished means ".

How many times do you have to be told that Jesus saves us all on his own?

How many times do you have to be told that he chooses whom he saves and he saves those who obey?

That is NOT what I have ever said or believe.

You do say it because you are going against me when I say we have to obey to get saved.

What we have to do is what Jesus taught us to do for salvation !

You have to do what the Way says to do to get to the Father.

Jhn 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Notice that Jesus taught it is not works that save but a single work, which is to believe on Him whom God has sent.

Jesus told them to believe in him and that it was a work.
It is not the only work that Jesus said to do.

John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

Did you read that?
Work for food that endures to eternal life.
Jesus is our food and we are to work for him, we do that by obeying his teachings.

No it is what Jesus said when He changed the answer from works to a single work for salvation.
That never happened.
Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.
 

dodge

New member
God's Truth;4966351]How many times do you have to be told that Jesus saves us all on his own?

How many times do you have to be told that he chooses whom he saves and he saves those who obey?

If you are saying they place their faith in Jesus to be saved I would agree, but if you are saying they have to be righteous in deeds then you are 100% wrong.

You do say it because you are going against me when I say we have to obey to get saved.

When you are wrong and keep trying to tell people you are right it is what happens.

YOU completely IGNORED these two scriptures that Jesus taught why ?

Jhn 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.



The Jews were big on works and Jesus rebuked them ! Why ? Because the only work that brings salvation is to place faith in Jesus. When that happens God leads and changes folks hearts. YOU have it backwards.

You have to do what the Way says to do to get to the Father.

Correct and the way taught:

Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.[/COLOR]
Jesus told them to believe in him and that it was a work.
It is not the only work that Jesus said to do.

Jesus also said, " if they believe not Moses and the prophets neither will they be persuaded even if one rise from the dead".


John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

Yes , they have to have faith in Jesus to be saved, and when you add to that you take away from what Jesus did and then they can glory in their own work,
which is condemned in scripture as needed for salvation.

Did you read that?
Work for food that endures to eternal life.
Jesus is our food and we are to work for him, we do that by obeying his teachings.

Yes I read that did you read where Jesus said to be saved it does not take works it takes a work, which is believe on Him whom God has sent ?

Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

I agree and that is why I said saved people obey because they are saved NOT to be saved.
 

God's Truth

New member
If you are saying they place their faith in Jesus to be saved I would agree, but if you are saying they have to be righteous in deeds then you are 100% wrong.

Again, we have to do what Jesus says to do to get saved.
Don’t you know what Jesus says to do to get saved?

When you are wrong and keep trying to tell people you are right it is what happens.

YOU completely IGNORED these two scriptures that Jesus taught why ?
You are not telling the truth, I did not ignore anything.
I even gave you scripture where Jesus says to work for food that leads to eternal life.

Jhn 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

All the scriptures where Jesus tells us to believe, they do not nullify the scriptures that say to obey.

Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had to be told to believe in him.


The Jews were big on works and Jesus rebuked them ! Why ? Because the only work that brings salvation is to place faith in Jesus. When that happens God leads and changes folks hearts. YOU have it backwards.
No such thing from God that you are saying.
Jesus never rebuked anyone for obeying too much.

Correct and the way taught:

Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.[/COLOR]

Believe in Jesus and that we have to obey him.

Jesus also said, " if they believe not Moses and the prophets neither will they be persuaded even if one rise from the dead".

How do you ever get that scripture disproves what I say about having to do what Jesus says?
Yes , they have to have faith in Jesus to be saved, and when you add to that you take away from what Jesus did and then they can glory in their own work, which is condemned in scripture as needed for salvation.
It is never ever wrong to obey God. There isn’t a right time and a wrong time to obey.
You have been taught wrong by false teachers.
Yes I read that did you read where Jesus said to be saved it does not take works it takes a work, which is believe on Him whom God has sent ?
Jesus did not say only believe and do nothing else.
Faith alone is dead.
Does this sound like Jesus doesn’t want you to obey to get saved:


…unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven; Matthew 18:3.

…unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart; Matthew 18:35.

…unless you repent, you too will all perish; Luke 13:3.

… unless they are born of water and the Spirit; John 3:5.

Unless I wash you, you have no part with me; John 13:8.

…unless it dies; 1 Corinthians 15:36.


...if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; Matthew 6:14


...if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins; Matthew 6:15


...If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples;
John 8:31


...if you do them you will be blessed; John 13:17


…If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love; John 15:10

...if you do what I command you are my friends; John 15:14

...if we obey His commands---we may know that we know Him; 1 John 2:3

I agree and that is why I said saved people obey because they are saved NOT to be saved.
No, listen more carefully, the Word of God says faith alone is DEAD, it CANNOT SAVE anyone.
That dead faith you are debating for, it is NOT the most important faith ever known, it is dead.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Scripture says that HIS FAITH was counted for righteousness.

I know that you don't accept that simple fact.




He saw Christs day somehow. (It doesn't sound like it from the text, but besides what Christ said, there are proposals that 'count' the stars is actually a way of reading them as in Persian astronomy, which is why the Persian magicians arrived in Israel in Mt 1 when they did: a world savior from the nation of Israel was to have arrived.)

We cannot assume that the "it" of "it was imputed to him as righteousness" was his faith. I believe it was what he saw/found out about Christ. Faith is only as good as its object.
 

Right Divider

Body part
He saw Christs day somehow. (It doesn't sound like it from the text, but besides what Christ said, there are proposals that 'count' the stars is actually a way of reading them as in Persian astronomy, which is why the Persian magicians arrived in Israel in Mt 1 when they did: a world savior from the nation of Israel was to have arrived.)

We cannot assume that the "it" of "it was imputed to him as righteousness" was his faith. I believe it was what he saw/found out about Christ. Faith is only as good as its object.
So are you like GT, believing that eternal life is not a gift but a reward for actions?

It's a very far stretch to think that IT is somehow separated from HE BELIEVED.

Gen 15:6 (KJV)
(15:6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

IT clearly refers to HE BELIEVED in the LORD.
 

Danoh

New member
So are you like GT, believing that eternal life is not a gift but a reward for actions?

It's a very far stretch to think that IT is somehow separated from HE BELIEVED.

Gen 15:6 (KJV)
(15:6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

IT clearly refers to HE BELIEVED in the LORD.

Yep :thumb:

In fact IP's "dancing with the stars" :D had nothing to do with some supposed evidence.

The exact opposite is the case.

Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

More examples...

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Lol - IP, even Mr. Magoo, out there just stumbling around believing things that are not...are...is closer as to what this is, than you and your ever endless made up on the spot...conjecture.
 

God's Truth

New member
Scripture says that HIS FAITH was counted for righteousness.

I know that you don't accept that simple fact.

I gave you the written Word of God.

His faith and right actions worked together.

Did you read how BECAUSE HE OBEYED he received the promises?

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."


Give up all teachings that are wrong and believe God's Truth.
 

God's Truth

New member
He saw Christs day somehow. (It doesn't sound like it from the text, but besides what Christ said, there are proposals that 'count' the stars is actually a way of reading them as in Persian astronomy, which is why the Persian magicians arrived in Israel in Mt 1 when they did: a world savior from the nation of Israel was to have arrived.)

We cannot assume that the "it" of "it was imputed to him as righteousness" was his faith. I believe it was what he saw/found out about Christ. Faith is only as good as its object.

The scriptures tell us what it was, it is his faith with right action.

Abraham saw his day, Christ's day, and was glad is because Abraham was alive in the spirit and could see what was going on.
 

God's Truth

New member
So are you like GT, believing that eternal life is not a gift but a reward for actions?

It's a very far stretch to think that IT is somehow separated from HE BELIEVED.

Gen 15:6 (KJV)
(15:6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

IT clearly refers to HE BELIEVED in the LORD.

He believed and obeyed. They go together, always.
 
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