Do the Angels in Heaven Have a FREE WILL?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Then how did some of them rebel against God?
Ben Masada
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The Person who wrote that statement of pagan idolatry above was a Hellenist former disciple of Paul's. It could have never come out from the lips of a Jew.
Ben Masada
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Parting from the principle that angels are seen only in dreams or visions, they have no freewill. They are simply spiritual emanations.
Ben Masada
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Finally some thing true from the pen of Robert! This is further evidence that Freewill was granted to man only.
Ben Masada
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I don't think he existed at all. Satan as a living being was a creation of Christianity. Since Judaism has nothing to do with Christianity, we don't even believe in Satan but metaphorically as a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man.
Ben Masada
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Can you quote any thing about this absurdity you have posted above? I wonder how some one can believe such a thing. Have you got this from Gerry Porter or some thing like that?
dodge
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Have you ever read the book of Job ?
Who appeared before God and said Job would curse God if his possessions was lost ?
Jews do NOT even believe their own prophets , and that is why they did not recognize their Messiah Jesus.
Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
FYI, Job was written before there was a Christian.
Ben Masada
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Yes, I have read the ALLEGORY of Job more than several times. Have you ever heard of the great Rambam aka Rabbi Moses Maimonides? In one of his books, "The Guide for the Perplexed" he said that the personage Job never existed. The book is only an allegorical Jewish novel to point to the role of Israel qua Emmanuel between God and Man. This function of Israel is demonstrated in the last chapter 42:7-10.
You don't believe the New Testament and have lots of trouble with the Old Testament. I have concluded that you don't know what you believe.
Ben Masada
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One does not need to believe when he knows. By the same token, one does not need faith when he trusts. To walk by sight is to know or understand where you walk through and to. To walk by faith was what Paul meant for his followers to believe and leave the understanding with him. (II Cor. 5:7) For instance, the existence of God. The majority of Bible readers believe by faith. I don't need faith to talk about the existence of God; I know it. I can prove His existence through Logic and Physics. I have no trouble with the Tanach as the Tanach itself has cleared all my doubts. If you want to try what I am saying, be my guest!
dodge
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I understand why the Jews make everything they disagree with " allegory" ! Then the Jews can ignore EVERYTHING that pertains to TRUTH and the coming Messiah ( Jesus ). I truly pity you and pray that God will open your heart, eyes, and ears before it is to late.
mitchellmckain
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The angels are not like us. They do not learn and grow as we do. They are completely creations of God and thus no more and no less than what God made them to be. Their knowledge and power are given to them by God rather than acquired as it is for us. Thus the arguments against us being responsibility for what we do rather than God which fail in our case work quite well in theirs. Thus the angels do not ultimately have free will.
But this does not mean angels do not have a pretty good imitation of free will. Imagine what an AI program designed by God would be like. That would give the Turing test a real run for its money and thus the difference is a subtle one.
However, while complex programs are in principle quite predictable an interaction with a free will human being the results can be far from predictable. Thus while angels by themselves have no free will, angel in relationship with human beings is a different matter. Like with the computer program the results can be quite unpredictable.
There was no rebellion by angels in heaven before the creation of man this is a fabricated myth in pseudopigraphical writings no different than the mythical stories of Zeus and Odin. Lucifer was made our adversary by God Himself as a result of the fall and the angels already under his command remained so and thus joined him in this new role assigned by God.
PS. I am a bit confused because I thought I posted on this thread already. Was my first post deleted? Is this a common occurrence on this forum?
But this does not mean angels do not have a pretty good imitation of free will. Imagine what an AI program designed by God would be like. That would give the Turing test a real run for its money and thus the difference is a subtle one.
However, while complex programs are in principle quite predictable an interaction with a free will human being the results can be far from predictable. Thus while angels by themselves have no free will, angel in relationship with human beings is a different matter. Like with the computer program the results can be quite unpredictable.
There was no rebellion by angels in heaven before the creation of man this is a fabricated myth in pseudopigraphical writings no different than the mythical stories of Zeus and Odin. Lucifer was made our adversary by God Himself as a result of the fall and the angels already under his command remained so and thus joined him in this new role assigned by God.
PS. I am a bit confused because I thought I posted on this thread already. Was my first post deleted? Is this a common occurrence on this forum?
Your real God is the Tanach.
Anything that can sin or rebel against God has a free will. What do you think? God made the angels in heaven to rebel against him?
Ben Masada
New member
Dodge, the point about Jesus not having been the Messiah is not defined by being Jewish but by the fact that the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Then, Prophet Habakkuk in 3:13 leaves no doubt by saying that, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord, aka Israel, the son of God, if you read Exodus 4:22,23.
dodge
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You do understand that after 3 days Jesus' arising from the dead was witnessed by over 500 folks right ?
Ben Masada
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I do understand but I can't believe because Paul was a man without credibility. This is one reason; another is that the Prophets of the Most High teach that once dead no one will ever return from the grave. Read II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalm 49:12,20; and many more throughout the Tanach. And last but not least, even if I could believe the 500 folks claimed by Paul, none of them was an eyewitness for the resurrection of Jesus. Simply witnesses are from hear-say. Of eyewitnesses there was none.
dodge
New member
I pray that God will open you heart to His truth. There was a small window of time that Messiah had to be born in and that time has long since passed. Denial of truth does NOT change the truth it just makes you a follower of lies.
dodge
New member
You do understand that where you will spend eternity depends n YOU opening your heart to God ( TRUTH ) and not traditions ?
There was a narrow window of time during which the Messiah had to come – and Jesus did just that.
The Messiah had to be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:1-2), be the Seed of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13), be born before the scepter departed from Judah (Genesis 49:10), be born while the temple was standing (Malachi 3:1), be born while genealogical records were available to prove His lineage (2 Samuel 7:12; Pslam 89) and be born shortly before the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed (Daniel 9:26).
It is critical to point out that Jesus had to be born while the genealogical records still existed to prove that He was the seed of David. All (that means every single one of) the records that proved the Messianic Lineage of Jesus were lost with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, as was prophesied long before His birth. Because of this destruction, and the specifications prophesied, only Jesus could have been the Messiah because He met every single condition required. There is absolutely no way that anyone could appear today that could possibly be the “Messiah” because all the requirements needed could never come again. This makes the truth of Jesus being The Messiah obvious to all.
According to the Hebrew scriptures, the Messiah must meet the following conditions.
{ The prophetic scripture is clearly seen in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament }
(1) Be the "seed of the woman" that would bruise the serpent's heel (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8)
(2) Be the "seed of Abraham" (Genesis 12:3; Matthew 1:1; Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16)
(3) Be the "seed of Isaac" (Genesis 17:19, 21:12; Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Hebrews 11:17-19)
(4) Be the "seed of Jacob" (Numbers 24:17-19; Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Revelation 22:16)
(5) Be a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Matthew 1:2-3; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14)
(6) Be a descendant of David and heir to his throne (2 Sam. 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:6-7, 11:1-5; Jeremiah 23:5; Matthew 1:1-6; Luke 1:32-33; Romans 1:1-4)
(7) Be declared the Son of God (Psalms 2:7; Proverbs 30:4; Matthew 3:17; Luke 1:32)
(8) Come at a specific time, 483 yrs.after the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem (Daniel 9:24-26; Luke 2:1-2)
(9) Be born in Bethlehem, in Judah (Micah 5:1-2; Luke 2:4-7)
(10) Be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18-21; Luke 1:26-35)
(11) Have fled to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
(12) Be adored by great persons (Psalms 72:10-11, Matthew 2:1-11)
(13) Be preceded by one who would announce him (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3; Luke 1:17, 3:2-6, 7:24-27)
(14) Be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 3:20-22)
(15) Have a ministry to heal the brokenhearted (Isaiah 61:1-2; Luke 4:18-19)
(16) Have a ministry of healing (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 11:5)
(17) Have a ministry in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1-2; Matthew 4:12-16)
(18) Be sinless (Isaiah 53:9; 1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15)
(19) Be a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Psalms 110:4; Hebrews 5:5-6, 6:20, 7:15-17)
(20) Enter publicly into Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11)
(21) Be hated without reason (Psalm 35:19; Isaiah 49:7; John 15:24-25)
(22) Be rejected by his own people, the Jews (Psalms 69:8-9; Isaiah 53:3; John 1:11; Luke 23:18)
(23) Be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together (Psalms 2:1-2; Acts 4:27)
(24) Be accused by false witness (Psalm 35:11; Mark 14:57-58)
(25) Be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9; Matthew 26:21-25; John 13:18-21; Luke 22:47-48)
(26) Be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15)
(27) Be silent to accusations (Isaiah 53:7; Mark 15:4-5)
(28) Have his price given for a potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13, Matthew 27:7-10)
(29) Be a vicarious sacrifice (Isaiah 53:5; Romans 5:6-8)
(30) Be spat on (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67)
(31) Be mocked (Ps. 22:7-8; Matthew 27:31, 39-44; Luke 23:35)
(32) Be beaten (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67)
(33) Be crucified with malefactors (Isaiah 53:12; Mark 15:27-28)
(34) Be pierced through His hands and feet (Ps. 22:16-17; Zechariah 12:10; John 20:27; Revelation 1:7)
(35) Be thirsty during His execution (Psalm 22:15-16; John 19:28)
(36) Be given vinegar to quench His thirst (Psalm 69:21-22; Matthew 27:34)
(37) Have prayed for His enemies (Psalm 109:4; Luke 23:34)
(38) Be executed without having a bone broken (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-33, 36)
(39) Be pierced in His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
(40) Have soldiers gamble for his garments (Psalm 22:17-18; Matthew 27:35-36)
(41) Be the one whose death would atone for the sins of mankind (Isaiah 53:5-7,12; Mark 10:45; John 1:29, 3:16)
(42) Be buried with the rich when dead (Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60)
(43) Be raised from the dead (Psalm 16:10, 49:15; Matthew 28:1-20, Mark 16:6-7; Acts 2:23-36, 13:33-37, 1 Corinthians 15:4-6)
(44) Ascend to the right hand of God (Psalms 16:9-11, 68:18, 110:1; Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11, 7:55-56; Hebrews 1:3)
(45) Be the cornerstone of God's Messianic Believing Community (Psalms 118:22-23; Isaiah 28:16; Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7)
Jesus Christ, The Messiah, has already come once...and He's coming again just as God has promised in His Word.
http://waitingforjesus.com/jesusisthemessiah.html