Did God die on the cross?

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Vail Lifted

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beloved57 said:
Not the same, not even close. Jesus the word existed in the beginning with God before creation. Jn 1:1 and He had Glory with Him before the world began Jn 17:5 Your example was kinda corny
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I understand the passage differently than you.

Logos can mean a spoken word or words which come from ideas. Ideas are thoughts of the mind. I believe it was God's idea to attribute all things to His son because God was prepared to offer everything He possess to His son by giving of His own spirit without measure to him.
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Vail Lifted said:
I understand the passage differently than you.

Logos can mean a spoken word or words which come from ideas. Ideas are thoughts of the mind. I believe it was God's idea to attribute all things to His son because God was prepared to offer everything He possess to His son by giving of His own spirit without measure to him.
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Yes i understand them differently from you, to me they prove the preexsitence of Christ
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Vail Lifted said:
Are you asking me if Jesus has two natures at the same time?

My answer to that is NO
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Maybe you need to read the specific question again

Now do you believe Jesus Christ was both God and Man ?

Simple yes or No. How much simpler can the question be ?
 
Lon

Lon

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Vail Lifted said:
The Trinitarian idea is that Jesus has two natures both God and man. And it would be absurd to say that God died. After all we are explicitly told that God only has immortality (deathlessness). Therefore it could only be Jesus' other nature, the nature of man, that died.

The Trinitarian claim is that the son of God is eternally begotton(contradiction) meaning that there never was a time that he was not. The son of God is a member of the Trinity and therefore can not die.

So how is it that God gave His own son to die on the cross(Rom 8:32) if the son cannot die because he is eternally God and the second person of trinity?
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Yesterday,
Lon said:

Correct
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I provided Did God Die on the Cross?

Physical death is not a cessation. The Lord Jesus Christ did not cease to be, but was separated, rather from the flesh. We likely have differing views as to what that entailed, but I believe Hades is separated ala Luke 16 into two parts and the Lord Jesus Christ went to Paradise Luke 23:43 He tasted death. Hebrews 2:9,10 As God, He raised His body from the dead. Acts 10:40 John 2:19
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

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Vail Lifted said:
The Trinitarian idea is that Jesus has two natures both God and man. And it would be absurd to say that God died. After all we are explicitly told that God only has immortality (deathlessness). Therefore it could only be Jesus' other nature, the nature of man, that died.

The Trinitarian claim is that the son of God is eternally begotton(contradiction) meaning that there never was a time that he was not. The son of God is a member of the Trinity and therefore can not die.

So how is it that God gave His own son to die on the cross(Rom 8:32) if the son cannot die because he is eternally God and the second person of trinity?
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No.

If God died then there was no one left to raise God from the dead.

Psalm 6:5

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


If God died then then scripture is wrong. For there are many scriptures that clearly state that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Thus establishing the point that if God is dead, then there is no one left to raise Jesus from the dead.

If Jesus has not been raised because there is no God alive to raise him

I Corinthians 15

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

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Lon said:
Yesterday, I provided Did God Die on the Cross?

Physical death is not a cessation. The Lord Jesus Christ did not cease to be, but was separated, rather from the flesh. We likely have differing views as to what that entailed, but I believe Hades is separated ala Luke 16 into two parts and the Lord Jesus Christ went to Paradise Luke 23:43 He tasted death. Hebrews 2:9,10 As God, He raised His body from the dead. Acts 10:40 John 2:19
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IF indeed your theory is correct then Jesus did not die for ours sins for if he did not die then no one died for our sins and you are yet and your sins and I in mine.


Since you claim that Jesus did not die then we have not been redeemed
 
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beloved57 said:
Ok consider our communications over since i cant get a reasonable yes or no from you regarding a simple question.
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It not as simple as you say because men have created a new kind of thing by saying Jesus has two natures. That thing is neither God nor man.
 
V

Vail Lifted

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oatmeal said:
No.

If God died then there was no one left to raise God from the dead.

Psalm 6:5

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


If God died then then scripture is wrong. For there are many scriptures that clearly state that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Thus establishing the point that if God is dead, then there is no one left to raise Jesus from the dead.

If Jesus has not been raised because there is no God alive to raise him

I Corinthians 15

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
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My post speaks as if I were Trinitarian but I'm not.
 
G

Gary K

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Vail Lifted said:
Of course he did.

When we say HE died we are speaking of a person. It was a person who died.
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Then I must ask you this: Is Jesus a liar? He must be according to your reasoning for this is what He said about Himself:

John 5:26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
[SIZE=+0]26[/SIZE] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
[SIZE=+0]27[/SIZE] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
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The same eternal life that the Father has was, at the time those words were spoken by Jesus , existing in the person of Jesus because the verb used in verse 27 is past perfect tense. Notice also that Jesus says the dead, even at that time, would hear His voice. And in truth the dead did hear His voice for raised He Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son, and Lazarus from death. Notice also that Jesus combines in Himself the Son of God and the Son of man. His statement is in direct conflict with what you have to say about Him.

Also, Jesus claimed to be the very God of the OT.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
[SIZE=+0]57[/SIZE] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[SIZE=+0]58[/SIZE] [FONT=&quot][/FONT]Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
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Jesus statement here is the claim to be the individual who existed before Abraham and the same individual who spoke to Moses at the burning bush. So, Jesus had to have two natures for by His own words He, Jesus, is God. The Jews erupted at this claim for they rightly understood His claim to be saying that He is God. In other words, you are taking the same posistion the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day did.

The only way Jesus could die was for Him to voluntarily lay aside His divinity, veil it so to speak. He has two natures. The Bible is very plain about that. The only way to deny it is to deny the words of Jesus Himself.
 
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