heir
TOL Subscriber
There is only one gospel of YOUR salvation!
Did Christ die for all men?
- Thread starter Sonnet
- Start date
There is only one gospel of YOUR salvation!
heir
TOL Subscriber
There is more than one gospel in the Bible. Anyone who can walk through the forest without bumping into the trees can see that!
heir
TOL Subscriber
What a load of bull. God wills all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV). Therefore, salvation is available to all men (Titus 2:11 KJV) to hear and trust the Lord believing (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV)!
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Sonnet
New member
I would agree - however it seems that some will not speak the same Gospel that they would declared to believers when speaking to unbelievers.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Yes, sadly there are many who preach an other gospel than that which Paul preached (Galatians 1:8-9 KJV). It's usually a hijacked gospel of the kingdom which is a time past and ages to come message to and through Israel. It was never to any of us.
Sonnet
New member
Nang
TOL Subscriber
"Load of bull?" How unladylike of you . . .
And you are very wrong.
God wills all kinds of men & women be saved; but these verses that do not support universal atonement.
If God indeed willed that ALL men universally be saved, then ALL men would repent of their sins and convert to faith in Jesus Christ.
There would be no warnings of judgment and hell left to proclaim, at all!
But rather, God has willed that all kinds of sinners, out of all nationalities and genders, be saved . . poor as well as rich, female as well as male, kings as well as commoners, slaves as well as free, etc. etc.
Not a word of Holy Scripture interprets this global will of God to save men of all nationalities as being universal salvation of 100% of mankind.
Universal atonement and/or Universal Salvation is biblicly untenable, and morphs into a false gospel message . . in all its various versions and formulas.
Sonnet
New member
Which of the following statements do you disagree with and why?
There is one Gospel
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 is the Gospel
Paul preached the Gospel to unbelievers
Therefore Paul told unbelievers 'Christ died for our sins'.
csuguy
Well-known member
Dispys= Dispensationalists.They believe that God gave one Gospel through Christ and his disciples to the Jews. Paul, at some point (different versions of Dispensationalism say assert this occurred at different times) is supposed to have received through revelation a new Gospel, a Gospel for the gentiles. They use this division to take anything they don't like - like being required to do the Lord's will to be saved - and they assert that was purely intended for the Jews under their Gospel. Meanwhile the Gentiles get the easy life where nothing is really required of them. Naturally all Dispys would themselves fall under the easy Gospel.
It's really quite silly - they try to divide Christians from Israel, but Christians are part of Israel. It is through our connection with Israel, having been grafted on, that we share in their blessings and promises.
Furthermore, Dispensationalism makes God entirely unjust - showing partiality to the Gentiles, who have little to no requirements on them for their salvation, whereas everything is demanded from the Jews. This is sinful and unscriptural.
Sonnet
New member
csuguy
Well-known member
The scriptures never assert such a thing - you've simply fabricated non-existent distinctions between the Gospel of Christ and the Gospel of Paul. You forget that the gentiles have been grafted onto Israel.
Romans 11:17-24 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [h]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
You have become arrogant with regards to Israel
Sonnet
New member
Romans 10:1ff
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Sonnet
New member
Romans 9:30-33
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Therefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Therefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Lon
Well-known member
CS is basically a kid with a lot of heresies and a high opinion of his theology. He may balk at this, but in a nutshell, I think this is important background for context when reading him because he feigns some kind of authority, yet pretty much goes off on his own with interpretation of both scripture and his 'ideas' about things like Dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is a complex systematic theology. His one-sentence reviews aren't very helpful. I'm not a dispensationalist, just know enough to say the one line is his opinion. Acts 15:29 and Galatians among other passages does imply that Jews and gentiles observing Christianity wasn't the same.
Sonnet
New member
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Matthew 23:39 (Jesus to Jerusalem)
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Matthew 23:39 (Jesus to Jerusalem)
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Agreed.
I Cor. 15:1-4 is one expression of the gospel message, but not the exhaustive gospel message. The entire bible is the Gospel revealed by God.
Agreed. Paul also preached the Gospel to saved souls . . . so?
Who is "our" in your estimation?
Was not all the church of Jesus Christ unbelieving before being born again?
Sonnet
New member
Okay - but the essence of the Gospel may be summed up in 1 Cor 15:3-4.
Just establishing that Paul did preach the Gospel to unbelievers. I have spoken to Christians that deny this.
Well, since Paul preached 1 Cor 15:3-4 to unbelievers, his audience would understand that he is telling each of them that Christ died for their sins.
After all, it's that very fact that makes it good news. If one is told that someone has died for you then it demands a response. One might reject it, but it is, nonetheless, a powerful assertion.
Romans 5:6-8
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
It is the ultimate act of love is it not?
Ask Mr. Religion
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I have answered you and you continue to return to the same position. You seem to ignore any answer you disagree with.
The passage is an institution of the Supper, hence cup-blood. Who celebrates the Supper? I think you know. Again, you are playing hermeneutical hopscotch hoping to make an argument that is simply not possible.
AMR
Sonnet
New member
Sure.
csuguy
Well-known member
I don't claim any authority in of myself. I've studied a lot, but I don't demand people agree with me because of it - unlike Lon here who will always assert his authority over others and dismisses them by calling them 'kids' and the like (I'm 27 and will have my Masters in Computer Science next month). Me and Lon here are always at odds because of this - I base my arguments upon the scriptures and logic, and demand the same in return. Lon bases his arguments upon his degrees. Even if you yourself have degrees (I have a BA in Religious Studies) he will simply assert his degree (also a bachelors) is simply superior. If that isn't good enough he'll cite this theologian or that to attempt to further build up his appeal to authority. Of course, this is a logical fallacy. I refuse to acknowledge his supposed authority, and he refuses to rely upon the scriptures and logic as the basis for his arguments. As such, most of our discussions don't go very far.
I run into similar problems with AMR, and as a result we tend not to have many discussions with one another - though he does love to follow me around and post things about me. He apparently likes to document people on the forum.
At the end of the day - you should judge me for yourself, look at what I say verses the evidence. In some respects I am quite traditional - I am strongly rooted in the scriptures, and I also study the early church fathers. In other respects, many would consider me heretical - for example, though I was raised a Trinitarian, I am no longer one. It's simply not scriptural nor is it THE historic position of the church as they like to assert - it took hundreds of years to develop the Trinity, and then it was established through complex politics, bloodshed, and the like. Perhaps a topic for another thread.