What are you talking about?
Do you actually believe that the laws are being enforced?
Don't answer. I don't care what you think - if you do think.
Crisis On The Border, Thanks Joe! (you filthy rapist)
- Thread starter ok doser
- Start date
Do you actually believe that the laws are being enforced?
Don't answer. I don't care what you think - if you do think.
LOL!!!! If brains were dynamite, you couldn't blow the fuzz off of a peach!'
Best to stick to whatever echo chamber you count as a church.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
According to Customs and Border Protection (CBP) statistics, the number of UACs (unaccompanied alien children) who came to the border shot up from 33,239 in FY2020 to over 146,000 in FY 2021 and 152,000 in FY 2022. So far in FY 2023 there have been over 70,000 encounters of unaccompanied children.
... the Biden administration has been rocked by a number of reports that officials have been unable to make contact with over 85,000 child migrants, and more recently that administration officials ignored signs of "explosive" growth in child labor. A number have been forced into indentured servitude to pay back smugglers and have worked in dire conditions.
Whistleblower to tell House that US govt is 'middleman' in multibillion dollar migrant child trafficking op
A House Judiciary subcommittee will hear from a witness who will warn that the U.S. is now a middleman of a massive operation of child smuggling at the southern border.
It's not working because it isn't being enforced.
It's not.
Yes. You think that being nice to murderers is "loving."
I think putting the murderer to death is loving.
The difference is that my position is affirmed by the Bible, and yours is not.
Yes. Instead of putting to death one criminal who deserves it, you move the death penalty to the innocent, because the murderer will murder many.
That's nice.
The Bible wasn't written in English though.
It was written in Hebrew and Greek.
For that reason, I stated, factually, that murder and kill are two different words in Hebrew.
You have it backwards.
If you murder someone, you kill them. All murder is killing.
But not all killing is murder.
When the government executes a criminal who has murdered, they kill him, but they do not murder him.
How does that in any way address what I said? Or are you just using that to cop out of using your brain to think?
God did not contradict Himself by saying "You shall not murder" and "you shall put the murderer to death."
I use the WHOLE Bible to defend my beliefs.
You seem to have limited yourself to using just the New Testament.
Let me tell you something: the New Testament would have no foundation without the Old Testament.
Christ's crucifixion on the cross.
Yes, that was the death penalty.
The wages of sin is death.
Christ became sin for us.
Thus, when he was nailed to the cross, he nailed the law, the power of sin, to the cross with Him.
The death penalty is at the heart of the gospel. If you take away the death penalty from those who deserve to die, you move it upon those who do not, for those who do will murder the innocent.
Supra.
Of course you wouldn't think it is.
Try making an argument.
It's far nicer than putting a murderer to death, or flogging someone guilty of assault, or forcing restitution upon a thief.
So preach the gospel to them as they're being put to death. What better chance do they have than that?
Maybe not according to your standards, but it is according to God's.
The best one is the one where you just read the Bible and let it speak for itself, rather than trying to interpret it.
Supra.
After rebuking, and "if he repents."
No, it says "you shall not murder."
Versions that use "kill" are poorly translated.
And love them. If that means that they are killed (perhaps in war), then so be it.
And heap coals upon their heads.
Romans 13.
You clearly do not know the definition of "moving the goalpost."
By "ours" are you talking about individuals? Or are you talking about humanity in general?
If the former, I agree, with exceptions.
If the latter, however, I advise you to read Romans 13.
No such thing. Only the original manuscripts were inspired.
If you just read the Bible, you won't have to worry about it.
Yes. And?
Some can, others cannot or intentionally did not.
Nope.
Strong's h7523
- Lexical: רָצַח
- Transliteration: ratsach
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: raw-tsakh'
- Definition: to murder, slay.
- Origin: A primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. Kill (a human being), especially to murder.
- Usage: put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).
- Translated as (count): the manslayer (8), the murderer (7), the slayer (7), a murderer (4), murder (3), and kills (2), of a murderer (2), You shall murder (2), a manslayer (1), and Killing (1), have you murdered (1), I shall be slain (1), kills (1), manslayer (1), murderers (1), of the manslayer (1), shall be put to death (1), that the slayer (1), who was murdered (1), You shall be slain (1).
| Thou Shalt Not Kill The sixth commandment appears in seven passages and only once does the King James properly translate the prohibition, at Matthew 19:18, "do not murder." Elsewhere (Ex. 20:13; Deut. 5:17; Mat. 5:21; Mk. 10:19; Luke 18:20; and Rom. 13:9) the King James translation renders this, sadly, as "Thou shalt not kill". (See our debate on the King James translation at kgov.com/kjo-ko). Many other versions (NKJV, ESV, NIV, RSV, ASB, NASB, etc.) accurately translate all these verses as "You shall not murder" (i.e., Ex. 20:13). In Hebrew, as in English, the words for "murder" and "kill" have overlapping definitions and the biblical context makes their different meanings easily understood. The Hebrew word for murder (ratsach, which appears in Ex. 20:13) is rendered even by the King James translators as murder/murderer 17 times. (Also, slayer/slain/slayeth 21 times; kill/killing 6 times; manslayer 2 times; and death once.) The Hebrew word for kill (which appears in Ex. 13:15, harag) is translated by the King James as slay/slayer/slain 132 times, as kill 27 times, murder/murderer 3 times, destroyed once, out of hand once, and made/put/surely 3 times. The Ten Commandments forbid murder, not killing. For, following them in the very next chapter in Exodus, we read: "He who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:15 "He who kidnaps a man... shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:16 "He who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:17 "If a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor to kill him... you shall take him [even] from My altar [if he's seeking sanctuary there, e.g., 1 Ki. 1:50-52; 2:28-34], that he may die." Ex. 21:14 "If [an unborn baby is killed] you shall give life for life." Ex. 21:23 [See AmericanRTL.org/Bible#Exodus21] It is not plausible (nor wise) to suppose that God contradicted Himself just a few sentences after delivering the Ten Commandments to Moses. Clearly God prohibited murder but insisted upon execution of murderers and others. Some Christians, however, are so influenced by the world's philosophy that they are ashamed of the Lord's own words in Exodus 21. Others talk as though God was a bad God in the Old Testament but that now in the New, He is a much nicer God, as though He has gone through a rite of passage. God forbid murder, and commanded the lawful execution of murderers. |
Why? Did you forget that we're talking about governments, and not individuals?
Irrelevant.
When speaking about their punishment by the Roman government, was the second thief on the cross opposite the one who mocked Jesus wrong when he said:
But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” - Luke 23:40-41 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke23:40-41&version=NKJV
Now you are adopting the way of the OT Jews?
Nope. I'm advocating that God's moral laws be kept by governments.
Mid-Acts Dispensationalism has very little, if anything, to do with this topic.
Is circumcision a moral command? Or is it a symbolic command?
No such thing.
No, they don't. The Bible is one unified message.
Irrelevant.
God used it to save mankind from their sin.
Supra.
Irrelevant.
Whatever happened to putting on the armor of God, which by the way includes a sword, which necessarily implies that you are going into battle?
Because you just told me that you expect God to fight your battles.
Nicer than God | KGOV.com
Your false humility is not something God approves of.
7djengo7
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That's a common error. To interpret the Bible is to give its meaning, so an interpretation of the Bible is a giving of its meaning. Indeed, lots of people out there give all sorts of things they wrongly claim the Bible means, none of which is an interpretation of the Bible. For example, since the Bible means God created the heaven and the earth in six days, the claim that the Bible means God created the heaven and the earth over a period of billions of years cannot be an interpretation of the Bible.
Right Divider
Body part
It is justice per the command of God.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Hmm, if only we had the Holy Spirit to guide us
7djengo7
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Way to not read a word I wrote in my post yet react to it anyway.
1 of 2
Correct.
He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”—then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” - Matthew 15:3-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew15:3-9&version=NKJV
God. Why?
Remember what I said about being nicer than God?
Yeah, that.
A righteous man regards the life of his animal, But the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. - Proverbs 12:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs12:10&version=NKJV
Wrong.
Where there's life, there's hope.
If someone is justly about to be forced to meet their Maker, what better way to send them off than by preaching the gospel to them just before they are put to death? If they repent, then the angels in heaven rejoice! If they do not repent, then their decision is made clear, being the last decision they ever make, to reject the One who made them.
CORRECT.
Criminals must face the consequences of their actions.
Our "just-a-system" that we have today does not accomplish this.
Wrong.
God is the one who demands that governments execute wrath upon the criminal. That includes the death penalty.
So you're calling Jesus a liar, then?
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” - Luke 23:43 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke23:43&version=NKJV
Which is more loving?
A) Having a murderer sit in a courtroom, being disruptive and preventing the trial to proceed, and mocking his victims family the entire time, for months and maybe even years on-end.
B) Having a trial proceed quietly, having the murderer flogged if he becomes disruptive or mocks his victim's family during the trial, and instead of taking months or years, the trial lasts a few hours while the evidence is presented to and weighed by the judge, who asks the criminal questions, and when it is determined that he is guilty, he is executed within 48 hours of sentencing, preaching the gospel to him as much as possible between his sentencing and his execution, and then executing him, so that the victim's family can have closure (not to mention justice).
The Cross.
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. - John 15:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John15:13&version=NKJV
What about it?
Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come!It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” - Luke 17:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke17:1-4&version=NKJV
Your position makes forgiveness superfluous.
You seem to think that my position is that people cannot simply forgive without rebuke.
It's not.
But if you forgive without rebuking too much, then you make forgiveness superfluous, and teach people that they do not have to repent for God to forgive them.
AGAIN, God did not contradict Himself when He said "you shall not murder" and "you shall put the murderer to death."
False.
So you apparently believe that Israel was sinning whenever they followed God obediently into battle...
For someone who claims to be a Christian, you sure don't know the Bible very well...
Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. - Romans 12:17-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans12:17-21&version=NKJV
Don't play dumb, Hoping.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJV
Why?
"Our," who? "We," who? Be specific.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJV
Correct.
He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”—then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” - Matthew 15:3-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew15:3-9&version=NKJV
God. Why?
Remember what I said about being nicer than God?
Yeah, that.
A righteous man regards the life of his animal, But the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. - Proverbs 12:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs12:10&version=NKJV
Wrong.
Where there's life, there's hope.
If someone is justly about to be forced to meet their Maker, what better way to send them off than by preaching the gospel to them just before they are put to death? If they repent, then the angels in heaven rejoice! If they do not repent, then their decision is made clear, being the last decision they ever make, to reject the One who made them.
CORRECT.
Criminals must face the consequences of their actions.
Our "just-a-system" that we have today does not accomplish this.
Wrong.
God is the one who demands that governments execute wrath upon the criminal. That includes the death penalty.
So you're calling Jesus a liar, then?
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” - Luke 23:43 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke23:43&version=NKJV
Which is more loving?
A) Having a murderer sit in a courtroom, being disruptive and preventing the trial to proceed, and mocking his victims family the entire time, for months and maybe even years on-end.
B) Having a trial proceed quietly, having the murderer flogged if he becomes disruptive or mocks his victim's family during the trial, and instead of taking months or years, the trial lasts a few hours while the evidence is presented to and weighed by the judge, who asks the criminal questions, and when it is determined that he is guilty, he is executed within 48 hours of sentencing, preaching the gospel to him as much as possible between his sentencing and his execution, and then executing him, so that the victim's family can have closure (not to mention justice).
The Cross.
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. - John 15:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John15:13&version=NKJV
What about it?
Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come!It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” - Luke 17:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke17:1-4&version=NKJV
Your position makes forgiveness superfluous.
You seem to think that my position is that people cannot simply forgive without rebuke.
It's not.
But if you forgive without rebuking too much, then you make forgiveness superfluous, and teach people that they do not have to repent for God to forgive them.
AGAIN, God did not contradict Himself when He said "you shall not murder" and "you shall put the murderer to death."
False.
So you apparently believe that Israel was sinning whenever they followed God obediently into battle...
For someone who claims to be a Christian, you sure don't know the Bible very well...
Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. - Romans 12:17-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans12:17-21&version=NKJV
Don't play dumb, Hoping.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJV
Why?
"Our," who? "We," who? Be specific.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJV
2 of 2
What part of "only the original manuscripts were inspired" makes you think that I can't tell what is inspired by God and what is not?
Hypocrite, first take the beam out of your own eye, so that you may see clearly to remove the mote from your neighbor's eye.
Sure it does.
Simple.
If the Bible says something, just believe it.
A better question is "WHAT DID Jesus Do?"
Why do you think interpretation is needed?
Why do you think that versions of the Bible that change the word used are correct?
You're glad that the KJV is in error for using "kill" instead of "murder" where it should be "murder"?
Telling.
Hypocrite!
You are.
In your attempts to mock me, you completely showed that you didn't even bother to read what I posted.
TRY AGAIN:
Only if the government is wicked, and only if I am aligned with such a wicked government.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJV
Good answer!
You just affirmed the death penalty for those who are deserving of death. Congratulations!
Of course not. Don't be silly.
The Romans aren't my guidance.
Romans is.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.Professing to be wise, they became fools,and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1:18-32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans1:18-32&version=NKJV
God's moral law, given in the Old Testament, and reaffirmed in the New.
Because the law of Christ only applies to believers. I'm talking about governments and how they should interact with their citizens, not how Christians should act
But you refuse to acknowledge this, because it completely blows any argument you can come up with out of the water.
Yes.
Wrong on both counts.
Circumcision is a symbolic law.
Moral laws are never in conflict with other moral laws. You never have to murder to avoid rape, or steal to avoid adultery.
Yet the symbolic laws often were in conflict with each other.
Such a shallow understanding of the Bible.
Is this what they taught you in Sunday School?
Let alone not being able to handle the meat of Scripture, you're lactose intolerant!
The message of the Bible is that God sent His Son to die for all of mankind, that whosoever shall believe in God shall have eternal life.
Allow me to quote Paul's words as my own:
For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.” - Acts 25:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts25:11&version=NKJV
False claim not supported by Scripture.
You, on the other hand, instead of putting on the armor of God to do battle, say, "I rejoice in having the Lord to fight my battles for me."
Bravo on your laziness! :mock:
I have no doubt in my mind that you think you're being humble, but you're only coming off as a braggart to everyone else.
You're not being very humble.
What part of "only the original manuscripts were inspired" makes you think that I can't tell what is inspired by God and what is not?
Hypocrite, first take the beam out of your own eye, so that you may see clearly to remove the mote from your neighbor's eye.
Sure it does.
Simple.
If the Bible says something, just believe it.
A better question is "WHAT DID Jesus Do?"
Why do you think interpretation is needed?
Why do you think that versions of the Bible that change the word used are correct?
You're glad that the KJV is in error for using "kill" instead of "murder" where it should be "murder"?
Telling.
Hypocrite!
You are.
In your attempts to mock me, you completely showed that you didn't even bother to read what I posted.
TRY AGAIN:
| Thou Shalt Not Kill The sixth commandment appears in seven passages and only once does the King James properly translate the prohibition, at Matthew 19:18, "do not murder." Elsewhere (Ex. 20:13; Deut. 5:17; Mat. 5:21; Mk. 10:19; Luke 18:20; and Rom. 13:9) the King James translation renders this, sadly, as "Thou shalt not kill". (See our debate on the King James translation at kgov.com/kjo-ko). Many other versions (NKJV, ESV, NIV, RSV, ASB, NASB, etc.) accurately translate all these verses as "You shall not murder" (i.e., Ex. 20:13). In Hebrew, as in English, the words for "murder" and "kill" have overlapping definitions and the biblical context makes their different meanings easily understood. The Hebrew word for murder (ratsach, which appears in Ex. 20:13) is rendered even by the King James translators as murder/murderer 17 times. (Also, slayer/slain/slayeth 21 times; kill/killing 6 times; manslayer 2 times; and death once.) The Hebrew word for kill (which appears in Ex. 13:15, harag) is translated by the King James as slay/slayer/slain 132 times, as kill 27 times, murder/murderer 3 times, destroyed once, out of hand once, and made/put/surely 3 times. The Ten Commandments forbid murder, not killing. For, following them in the very next chapter in Exodus, we read: "He who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:15 "He who kidnaps a man... shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:16 "He who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:17 "If a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor to kill him... you shall take him [even] from My altar [if he's seeking sanctuary there, e.g., 1 Ki. 1:50-52; 2:28-34], that he may die." Ex. 21:14 "If [an unborn baby is killed] you shall give life for life." Ex. 21:23 [See AmericanRTL.org/Bible#Exodus21] It is not plausible (nor wise) to suppose that God contradicted Himself just a few sentences after delivering the Ten Commandments to Moses. Clearly God prohibited murder but insisted upon execution of murderers and others. Some Christians, however, are so influenced by the world's philosophy that they are ashamed of the Lord's own words in Exodus 21. Others talk as though God was a bad God in the Old Testament but that now in the New, He is a much nicer God, as though He has gone through a rite of passage. God forbid murder, and commanded the lawful execution of murderers. |
Only if the government is wicked, and only if I am aligned with such a wicked government.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJV
Good answer!
You just affirmed the death penalty for those who are deserving of death. Congratulations!
Of course not. Don't be silly.
The Romans aren't my guidance.
Romans is.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.Professing to be wise, they became fools,and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1:18-32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans1:18-32&version=NKJV
God's moral law, given in the Old Testament, and reaffirmed in the New.
Because the law of Christ only applies to believers. I'm talking about governments and how they should interact with their citizens, not how Christians should act
But you refuse to acknowledge this, because it completely blows any argument you can come up with out of the water.
Yes.
Wrong on both counts.
Circumcision is a symbolic law.
Moral laws are never in conflict with other moral laws. You never have to murder to avoid rape, or steal to avoid adultery.
Yet the symbolic laws often were in conflict with each other.
Such a shallow understanding of the Bible.
Is this what they taught you in Sunday School?
Let alone not being able to handle the meat of Scripture, you're lactose intolerant!
The message of the Bible is that God sent His Son to die for all of mankind, that whosoever shall believe in God shall have eternal life.
Allow me to quote Paul's words as my own:
For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.” - Acts 25:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts25:11&version=NKJV
False claim not supported by Scripture.
You, on the other hand, instead of putting on the armor of God to do battle, say, "I rejoice in having the Lord to fight my battles for me."
Bravo on your laziness! :mock:
I have no doubt in my mind that you think you're being humble, but you're only coming off as a braggart to everyone else.
You're not being very humble.
Is there ANYTHING that you believe that is biblical? I'm beginning to doubt it!
Luke 23:40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
And it isn't the government's insistence, its God's!
Genesis 9:6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.
Ezekiel 13:19 And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?”
Hoping will say something along the lines of:
"But that's in the Old Testament?
Are you going to follow Old Testament law?
Now you are adopting the way of the OT Jews?
It seems you are advocating we revert back to Jewish, OT Law, to punish the criminals?"
Lol
7djengo7
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You have serious reading problems.
Copout.
AMEN!
Answered in the posts above.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
As if that's at all relevant to what was said.
7djengo7
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Could you give an example of something you'd be willing to call "an interpretation of the Bible" while also calling it "incorrect"?
Remember, an interpretation is a giving of the meaning of something.
Is it correct to say that the Bible means that Jesus is a created being? No. But heretics claim that the Bible means that Jesus is a created being. Would you be willing to say that they, in so claiming, are giving the meaning of the Bible? If not, then why would you call their so claiming, "an interpretation of the Bible", since their so claiming fails to be a giving of the meaning of the Bible?
No, you don't believe that.
We're not talking about you or me killing people, Hoping.
We're talking about the government's responsibility to execute wrath upon the guilty.
Yes, thank you for finally joining the discussion.
More innocent people have died in one year as a result of NOT putting capital criminals to death than there ever would be in a lifetime if the government actually executed criminals guilty of capital crimes.
Why do you go directly against what God says?
Why do you profane God by advocating that we keep people alive who should not live, and kill people who should not die?
And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?” - Ezekiel 13:19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel13:19&version=NKJV
Not even close.
I'm not.
I'm trying to put it back into the hands of the government, because God authorized and commanded that governments punish criminals.
"We" are not whom I'm talking about.
I'm talking about governmental responsibility. Get that through your thick head already!
Shame on you.
I reply the way I do because there's so much wrong with what you say!
Maybe if your posts were more internally consistent, I wouldn't have to.
More bearing false witness!
That's because confusion reigns within you.
God is not the author of confusion.
Ask God for wisdom.
How would you know? You probably didn't even bother reading it.
It isn't so.
We're talking about the government killing criminals guilty of capital crimes, flogging those guilty of assault and contempt of court, and forcing restitution upon those guilty of theft.