Creation vs. Evolution

[Hedshaker]

The BB suggests a beginning, but in a restricted sense.

I've heard that even Roger Penrose, amongst others, are now of the opinion that the Big Bang was not the beginning of everything. This "nothing" I hear bandied about makes no sense to me. If energy cannot be destroyed and cannot be created but can change form, why assume that has ever been any different?

A beginning of the BB event, sure. But that does not indicate the beginning of existence, does it?

 

[gcthomas]

You are on firm ground here, even in Science.

Science denies supernatural events and is founded upon the argument that for every Effect there is a Cause.

This has always been anti-magic and anti-supernatural superstition.
Yet, to this this day, Science MUST beg the Axiom before it makes it case, that the First Cause be exceptional to this theory of Cause and Effect.
The First Cause remains the Unmoved Mover and inexplicable, supernatural Creator of the eve unfolding Reality we experience from moment to moment.
This is NOT supposition in place of the absence of an initial Cause, but a necessary postulate that Science must start with if its claim that for EVERY effect there is a Cause.
That premise includes the requirement for a Cause to the Big Bang, and we have none other than some detached "Observer", one outside of the Universe that was to appear as suggested by the Science of the Copenhagen Interpretation.

You are mistaken about the Copenhagen Interpretation: measurements cause wave function collapse, not observers (that would be from Von Neumann's chain). And since the development of quantum decoherence theory over the last six decades, the details of the measurements necessary have been understood. (mostly it is simply the interaction between the wave and microscopic systems, such as collisions with air molecules, screens, detectors etc. that causes decoherence and so the apparent wave function collapse)

Consciousness is not, and has never been, necessary, even in the Copenhagen Interpretation.

 

[freelight]

Endless Wonder............

Endless Wonder............

I've heard that even Roger Penrose, amongst others, are now of the opinion that the Big Bang was not the beginning of everything. This "nothing" I hear bandied about makes no sense to me. If energy cannot be destroyed and cannot be created but can change form, why assume that has ever been any different?

A beginning of the BB event, sure. But that does not indicate the beginning of existence, does it?

If we take the view of Advaita (non-duality) from the ancient Hindu tradition and modern scientific speculations,....Existence itself has always been, its 'source' is its own 'Self'(Brahman) as it were, since all 'potentials' and 'actuals' forever exist within IT. We can call it 'Existence itself', but even before 'existence' there must exist its 'source', that which enables it to 'be' or express itself as 'creation'.

Science and Non-duality

Even in Genesis there is a sense of it speaking of "a" beginning instead of 'THE' beginning, when it speaks of heavens and an earth being created/formed,...so that the passage relates to this specific local universe-creation. It is there relative to this local creation within infinity, as written for the religious community of its generation, catering to its religious culture, needs and nomenclature. This local universe could be just one among thousands of different universes, within The Universe of universes

Within infinity,...there are numberless beginnings and endings of creations (universes, worlds in space-time, cycles of births, deaths, rebirths.....). All there is is THE INFINITE ONE....while creations rise and fall back into the primordial One, the womb of everything. All there is is 'Brahman'...the eternal essence being the substratum of all that is.

The BB seems consistent with many scientific models or evidences, but also questioned by some as well, as there are still some problems and gaps in the hypothesis. Beginning points can be assumed where such definitions arise in that which is beyond definition, so we have measurable dimensions arising within 'that' that has no dimension. We as theists usually call that indescribable SOURCE 'God' (I take a more liberal pan-en-theistic view).

Its all quite wonderful.



pj

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear freelight,

Your advaita is about a foreign 'god' and non-duality too (bs)! It is for the Hindus, not us. I don't buy it. I've never heard of it in my Christian writings or church. God is one, He is not Hindu advaita, or dual and non-dual or whatever. You are always barking up the wrong tree and your brain is so damaged as to believe in all that crap. Being Hindu is NOT the answer, but if it is your desire, good luck when God comes to bring His believers home to Him.

Have At It!!

 

[MichaelCadry]

Revelation has been so interesting a speculation into the future of Western/Jewish society that movies have been produced which have drawn large audiences and made many actors, script writers, and moguls happy and even rich.

It has been the driving force behind religious anticipation and revivals as in each generation some of the things it refers to has always seemed applicable to the social conditions.

Revelation has been instrumental in galvanizing large groups of people drawn together in the name of great social change which seemed to be supported with things stated in that Book.
It was used to search out villains which actually did exist inside the church, and it may well have been the necessary support for the Protestant revolt that force a Reformation in the western institution of religion.

But, it seems to be a pretty good puzzle that has discredited most attempts at a thorough exegesis of all past interpretations.
The many failed tries to link what was written to events and individuals of the past have all failed to completely satisfy the writings and over time, proven poor guesses.

Nevertheless, interest remains high and each generation still sees current events that fit some of the passages.

Link to free copy

Dear Dave3712,

Thanks for your response. The 3rd angel that visited me proclaimed "Do not follow after the beast and his image (Uri Geller), nor receive his mark (power) in your right hand or forehead (mind)." And the angel explained to me that this man Uri (means light, like Lucifer means light, but it is not a good light, but instead an evil light) would cause six hundred and sixty six others to acquire these powers he has (bending silverware, moving watch hands and compass needles, etc.) by his urging others that they can acquire these abilities. The angel said that this was his number and that God would not allow more than six hundred sixty six other persons to be deceived by this beast, and this is his number, like the number of a leader and his followers, or the number of a captain and his army, etc. And that no man could buy or sell (these powers), give them or receive them, etc., except those who had acquired them already. Hope I've explained this clearly enough for you. The angel told me more, but it would take a lot more time to explain it all to you.

God Be With You and Bless You and Yours,

Michael

 

[gcthomas]

Dear Dave3712,

Thanks for your response. The 3rd angel that visited me proclaimed "Do not follow after the beast and his image (Uri Geller), nor receive his mark (power) in your right hand or forehead (mind)." And the angel explained to me that this man Uri (means light, like Lucifer means light, but it is not a good light, but instead an evil light) would cause six hundred and sixty six others to acquire these powers he has (bending silverware, moving watch hands and compass needles, etc.) by his urging others that they can acquire these abilities. The angel said that this was his number and that God would not allow more than six hundred sixty six other persons to be deceived by this beast, and this is his number, like the number of a leader and his followers, or the number of a captain and his army, etc. And that no man could buy or sell (these powers), give them or receive them, etc., except those who had acquired them already. Hope I've explained this clearly enough for you. The angel told me more, but it would take a lot more time to explain it all to you.

God Be With You and Bless You and Yours,

Michael

You are aware that Uri Geller is a common parlour magician, and that he bends spoons using muscular power, not his mind? There are plenty of YouTube clips that catch him out, if you'd care to look.

Lucifer wouldn't need to cheat now, would he?

 

[Stegley]

Dear All,

I'm going to tell you what the Lord told me; the facts. I hope it helps you all and that you STUDY your Bible and the first two books of Genesis to understand. Thank you. The earth has been here for a few million years. Some of you seem to think that just by gradual changing, different species 'evolved'. Give God more credit than that. God created every creature on the earth, in each day/generation the is written in the Bible. This includes also when the dinosaurs were on earth. But, God wiped the screen blank a number of times indeed. In other words, He created and then obliterated, and formed each animal and bird, and critter and man/woman differently, each time changed in ways He saw fit. Just like He obliterated everyone but Noah and his family. There is NO EVOLUTION. Tell that to God when you see HIM. He has EVERY PART on how each animal/human was formed because He kept re-forming them and making them different each time. It's God's HANDIWORK here at stake, not "evolution's." From our own Adam and Eve being formed, this is the generation of our Adam.

You'll notice in the first chapter of Genesis, it says God "Created" each in their 'day' or 'generation' (time in which they were generated). We also cannot ascertain that, in the past million years, 24 hours was the 'day's' length then either. All that I do know is that He has revealed something to me to share with others, for their sakes. He did create the first Adam and Eve in six days and rested on the seventh. Believe me or not. It really doesn't matter. In the first chapter of Genesis, it says God created the beasts and birds, and all of that, before He created man on the sixth 'day' or 'generation'. Now follow all this closely and re-read it as much as necessary for you. In the SECOND chapter of Genesis, does it not say that the Lord God "Formed" man from the dust of the ground. And the Lord God saw that the man was lonely, and so He 'formed' the birds, and animals from the dust of the ground and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. So first, we have Adam being CREATED after the birds and beasts were CREATED, and yet in Genesis chapter two, it says the Lord God FORMED man BEFORE the beasts and birds.

You will also notice that in the first chapter, God said the fowl/birds were created from the waters, but in the second chapter, it says the Lord God FORMED the birds/fowl from the dust of the ground. Now it is time for people to know the truth because they are questioning the true existence of God. I happen to know that God CREATED man and woman once, and the Lord God wiped them from the face of the earth many times and improved man and animals and plants, etc. as He saw fit. That is why we find man's bones that are way older than 5,000 years, or "OUR" ADAM. There were Adams and Eves formed many times over the thousands of years and they were perfected and changed as the Lord God saw fit. That is why it is written, "and He called THEIR name Adam in the day they were created. That is why it is written, 'This is the book of the generations of Adam, in the image of God made he him/man.' I'm not sure that is the exact quote without looking it up right now. It is not a big matter. The Lord God has wiped the earth clean before and He will again. Remember Noah and his wife, of whom we are all descended from, therefore we are ALL Brothers and Sisters who don't get along well. Ishmael is the descendant of all of the Arab people. The next time the Lord God wipes this earth clean, He will again FORM a man from the dust of the ground, whether He forms the beasts beforehand or afterwards, and He will FORM another woman. And another book will be written for that Generation of Adam (and Eve). I hope I've explained this well enough for now. This is the Lord God's playpen down here (His VERY BELOVED CREATION) and He will change things as He will a dollhouse. It's His option. What are you going to do about it?? Forget your Evolution idea!! There is a Higher Power that oversees every little change in every creature He forms. That's all, just for now. Re-read and study, and look in your Bibles.
May the Lord God Continue to Bless the Lord Jesus,
For the Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand until I make thy enemies your footstool. He is doing just that. Can you understand any of this?? Please, if you have any comments, keep them civil and maybe kind? This is some of the info that the Lord told John of Patmos NOT to write (Rev. 10:4), when the seven thunders uttered their voices. People were not ready to handle it then, but we are ready now.

Praise His Greatness and His Intense Imagination, Which Is An Incredible Amazing Thing,

Michael Cadry

Go to the link below, then click on 'Book Copy', then SKU-text and the Title Page of my book will come up. You can then read it off your computer screen.

24 hours was the day length, because it included an "evening and a morning."

Duhhh.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear gcthomas,

You don't know as much as you think you do. He doesn't do the tricks by 'magic' like Amazing Randi says, and what Randi says is what caused the deadly wound to Uri, but another guy named Jean-Pierre Girard came doing the same miracles as Uri for scientists at Stanford Research Institute, and he caused fire (lightning) to come down to the earth from heaven in the sight of men (God sent the lightning). Thus it fulfills, "and he doeth great wonders, so that he caused fire to come down from heaven upon the earth in the sight of men" (See Rev. 13:13). And he caused his deadly wound to be healed. Uri is the beast and Jean-Pierre, the false prophet. Read the entire chapter of Rev. 13. You know nothing gcthomas. You have no idea what God has going on behind your back. Good luck being an atheist!! Time's a wastin'!

In His Power and Great Wisdom,

MichaelC

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Stegley,

It's been said that back then, the earth's day may have lasted 22 hours, or whatever it actually was. Only God knows. None of us really know, now do we?? Back then was millions of years ago. Don't you get it?

MichaelC

 

[gcthomas]

You think Geller is genuine? Now I know you are barmy for sure.

 

[Hedshaker]

If we take the view of Advaita (non-duality) from the ancient Hindu tradition and modern scientific speculations,....Existence itself has always been, its 'source' is its own 'Self'(Brahman) as it were, since all 'potentials' and 'actuals' forever exist within IT. We can call it 'Existence itself', but even before 'existence' there must exist its 'source', that which enables it to 'be' or express itself as 'creation'.

Science and Non-duality

Even in Genesis there is a sense of it speaking of "a" beginning instead of 'THE' beginning, when it speaks of heavens and an earth being created/formed,...so that the passage relates to this specific local universe-creation. It is there relative to this local creation within infinity, as written for the religious community of its generation, catering to its religious culture, needs and nomenclature. This local universe could be just one among thousands of different universes, within The Universe of universes

Within infinity,...there are numberless beginnings and endings of creations (universes, worlds in space-time, cycles of births, deaths, rebirths.....). All there is is THE INFINITE ONE....while creations rise and fall back into the primordial One, the womb of everything. All there is is 'Brahman'...the eternal essence being the substratum of all that is.

The BB seems consistent with many scientific models or evidences, but also questioned by some as well, as there are still some problems and gaps in the hypothesis. Beginning points can be assumed where such definitions arise in that which is beyond definition, so we have measurable dimensions arising within 'that' that has no dimension. We as theists usually call that indescribable SOURCE 'God' (I take a more liberal pan-en-theistic view).

Its all quite wonderful.



pj

Sure, and infinitely more wonderful without the myths and flim flam. Advaita, Brahman, Genesis.... are you serious? Like there as ever been an atom of truth found in man made tales of antiquity. Without any doubt what-so-ever the mysteries of life, existence, the universe and everything is way, way beyond that and much too important to allow ones natural mind to become infected with such nonsense when there are REAL discoveries to be made through the ONLY method that works and is actually real.

But of course, the genuine method is slow and painstaking and may never reveal everything so it is tempting to make stuff up or follow others (new and old) who have obviously made stuff up in order to be revered and considered "enlightened". They probably mean well in their way but they are far from enlightened, neither do they deserve the reverence of others.

I say resist them. They think they have knowledge but they really do not.

 

[Jason0047]

The most important thing we can learn from the creation vs evolution debate is in having the gospel in focus. For if one takes their eyes off the prize (Jesus), or does not know what the joy of that prize is like, then one cannot truly appreciate the truth of the origin of man. For we have to remember that death came after the fall and not before. For if you change that, you change the gospel. You change the truth. And changing the truth is not good because Jesus is the way the truth and the life.

 

[dave3712]

Sure, and infinitely more wonderful without the myths and flim flam. Advaita, Brahman, Genesis.... are you serious? Like there as ever been an atom of truth found in man made tales of antiquity. Without any doubt what-so-ever the mysteries of life, existence, the universe and everything is way, way beyond that and much too important to allow ones natural mind to become infected with such nonsense when there are REAL discoveries to be made through the ONLY method that works and is actually real.

But of course, the genuine method is slow and painstaking and may never reveal everything so it is tempting to make stuff up or follow others (new and old) who have obviously made stuff up in order to be revered and considered "enlightened". They probably mean well in their way but they are far from enlightened, neither do they deserve the reverence of others.

I say resist them. They think they have knowledge but they really do not.

Well, yeah, for sure we need look at Empirical Science for establishing the Facts of life which we then can sanely relate to these mysteries and eternal questions about what this existence is all about.
For sure.

But then there is no reason to start with the assumption that Genesis is a myth about the step by step unfolding of events.
Since the Bible has been and may still be the great Epic of Western Culture, we need examine what it says and even hope to find it makes sense, since it has founded the whole culture of the West for 2000 years.

When I read it, it seems to correspond with what Empirical Science now tells us if one starts with Gen 1:1, seeing the beginning as corresponding to our Big Bang Theory and the knowledge that Light was, indeed, delayed for 400 million years before the Stars allowed visibility to span the Cosmos.

The Plant Kingdom was, indeed, established long before the Animal Kingdom, and pretty much as written, with creatures of the sea appearing before the land animals and then, man.

Even the Genealogy appears to refer to the 22 distinct species we believe Modern man has been derived from.

I see no social benefit nor intellectual advantage to attacking the foundations of our own Western Culture, especially at a time when it is threatened by the East and Middle East.
In fact, it seems treason of the worst sort to ignore the amazing comparison between Genesis and the facts of Science, while bashing the Bible in general with out mercy for no good reason.

 

[dave3712]

... existence is moment-to-moment as each frame of Reality appears...

... existence is moment-to-moment as each frame of Reality appears...

A beginning of the BB event, sure. But that does not indicate the beginning of existence, does it?

Yes'
The BB does indicate the beginning of existence.

"I am" refers to the momentary Reality which fleetingly replaces that previous momentary Reality and anticipates the next unfolding frame within which we exist.

Time is a scalar quantity which moves only forward, leaving the Reality of the last moment in the past we call History, inaccessible to us forevermore, as we experience the "Now" of the next unfolding frame of Reality within which we are both Trapped like prey and yet nurtured for the next unfolding.

It is within this dynamic that we exist, as does that split second of Reality, both of us claiming "I am," which is in stark contrast to the dinosaurs, which "are not."

 

[Hedshaker]

Of course, those who have a mind to are entitled to believe what ever they wish, but they should hold back on telling others they know about things of which they clearly do not.

When the mystics and the religionists and the gurus and the enlightened ones use their supposed knowledge and insight to develop say, a serum to control the onset of Alzheimer's, so that some of us are spared the anguish of the "long goodbye" then I for one might take them seriously.

But they won't do that. What they will do is wait for a scientific break through and then say: "see how awesome God is in giving us science so that we may make these wonderful discoveries."

But we know who the real hero's are.

 

[dave3712]

How about a "serium" to cure a sick society?

How about a "serium" to cure a sick society?

Of course, those who have a mind to are entitled to believe what ever they wish, but they should hold back on telling others they know about things of which they clearly do not.

When the mystics and the religionists and the gurus and the enlightened ones use their supposed knowledge and insight to develop say, a serum to control the onset of Alzheimer's, so that some of us are spared the anguish of the "long goodbye" then I for one might take them seriously.

But they won't do that. What they will do is wait for a scientific break through and then say: "see how awesome God is in giving us science so that we may make these wonderful discoveries."

But we know who the real hero's are.

The serum of Truth was applied by Rev Martin Luther King to heal an apartheid in America that was about to experience the revolution of the demagoguery of Malcolm X, as his Black Muslim were being incited into inner-city destruction of all the major metropolises of America.

But the serum of Truth, administered by King who died of the same plague, saved the USA,... for that time.



"I AM the Truth and the way and the life..."

 

[Hedshaker]

The serum of Truth was applied by Rev Martin Luther King to heal an apartheid in America that was about to experience the revolution of the demagoguery of Malcolm X, as his Black Muslim were being incited into inner-city destruction of all the major metropolises of America.

But the serum of Truth, administered by King who died of the same plague, saved the USA,... for that time.



"I AM the Truth and the way and the life..."

Yes dear.....

If anyone is interested in real science please enjoy the following video:

Professor Bian Cox lecture on the universe

Please note there is no mention of ancient creation myths so if that's you bag feel free to skip the video and remain ignorant.

If, on the other hand, you enjoy this lecture then please go to youtube and type "Professor Bian Cox lecture on the universe" into your search as there are 4 more lectures that follow.

Good stuff. No magic, no mysticism, just science. Enjoy :thumb:

 

[dave3712]

...no one will go, and yhe few who might will never change...

...no one will go, and yhe few who might will never change...

Yes dear.....

If anyone is interested in real science please enjoy the following video:

Professor Bian Cox lecture on the universe

Please note there is no mention of ancient creation myths so if that's you bag feel free to skip the video and remain ignorant.

If, on the other hand, you enjoy this lecture then please go to youtube and type "Professor Bian Cox lecture on the universe" into your search as there are 4 more lectures that follow.

Good stuff. No magic, no mysticism, just science. Enjoy :thumb:

The good professor needs to gather an audience before he can sell them his great message.

Monotheistic Religion has done this gathering and has an ready audience for the great teacher who is at the door right now, as the 2 billion christens and 2 billion Muslims sit awaiting.

The better mouse trap built by Jesus required a sales effort to gather the customers which are now ready to buy into the message.

 

[Hedshaker]

The good professor needs to gather an audience before he can sell them his great message.

Monotheistic Religion has done this gathering and has an ready audience for the great teacher who is at the door right now, as the 2 billion christens and 2 billion Muslims sit awaiting.

The better mouse trap built by Jesus required a sales effort to gather the customers which are now ready to buy into the message.

Only trouble is, monotheistic Religion hasn't taught us anything we couldn't work out for ourselves in thousands of years compared to the huge leaps and strides in medicine and technology learned through the scientific method. Don't like it? Well tough, it's factual, unlike ancient myths and fables.

I don't think "The good professor" need need worry about what proponents of old fairy tales have to say.

 

[freelight]

what is fundamental?

what is fundamental?

Sure, and infinitely more wonderful without the myths and flim flam. Advaita, Brahman, Genesis.... are you serious? Like there as ever been an atom of truth found in man made tales of antiquity. Without any doubt what-so-ever the mysteries of life, existence, the universe and everything is way, way beyond that and much too important to allow ones natural mind to become infected with such nonsense when there are REAL discoveries to be made through the ONLY method that works and is actually real.

But of course, the genuine method is slow and painstaking and may never reveal everything so it is tempting to make stuff up or follow others (new and old) who have obviously made stuff up in order to be revered and considered "enlightened". They probably mean well in their way but they are far from enlightened, neither do they deserve the reverence of others.

I say resist them. They think they have knowledge but they really do not.

I say there is nothing to 'resist' necessarily, but to be open to consider all points of view - also as shared,...'Advaita' (non-duality) points to that underlying substrate behind all that exists from which essence all things originate and are formed from, which is indivisibly connected to consciousness, apart from which nothing would exist. It is only thru the medium of consciousness itself, that anything can be perceived or known. When all sense of separation dissolves, there is only an all-pervading oneness. The fundamental knowledge is the sense of 'I Am' (cognizance of one's own being).

Beyond any so called scientific knowledge or 'data'....there is still consciousness, so consciousness itself is fundamental, not the data or objective knowledge that is discovered as testable phenomena (or observations) that arise. There is no world or universe outside of consciousness.



pj