Creation vs. Evolution

[alwight]

The most important thing we can learn from the creation vs evolution debate is in having the gospel in focus. For if one takes their eyes off the prize (Jesus), or does not know what the joy of that prize is like, then one cannot truly appreciate the truth of the origin of man. For we have to remember that death came after the fall and not before. For if you change that, you change the gospel. You change the truth. And changing the truth is not good because Jesus is the way the truth and the life.

The truth according to the author of Gospel John anyway.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life"
"Ego sum via veritas et vita." John 14:6
also by the same author:
"I am the resurrection and the life"
"Ego sum resurréctio et vita" John 11:25

Perhaps for you it's only the author of G.John, not Jesus, that should be kept in focus while all the evidence for the origin of man through evolution by natural selection can largely be dismissed? :think:

 

[Hedshaker]

I say there is nothing to 'resist' necessarily, but to be open to consider all points of view - also as shared,...'Advaita' (non-duality) points to that underlying substrate behind all that exists from which essence all things originate and are formed from, which is indivisibly connected to consciousness, apart from which nothing would exist. It is only thru the medium of consciousness itself, that anything can be perceived or known. When all sense of separation dissolves, there is only an all-pervading oneness. The fundamental knowledge is the sense of 'I Am' (cognizance of one's own being).

Beyond any so called scientific knowledge or 'data'....there is still consciousness, so consciousness itself is fundamental, not the data or objective knowledge that is discovered as testable phenomena (or observations) that arise. There is no world or universe outside of consciousness.
pj

All of which would make more sense if it were known that consciousness pre existed matter, space, time, universe. But of course this is not known, it is a faith belief. To all intents and purpose consciousness is a late emergent property of the universe, though I seriously doubt that we humans are the only sentient beings that have emerged in this vast universe.

 

[Hedshaker]

Maybe Michael's angel can have a word with his/her/its boss about showing us a cure for Parkinson's.

Wouldn't that be a game changer now?

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear hedshaker,

If God wanted a cure for some malady, He would provide it when He's ready, just as He's done with other ills. God's Wisdom is more than yours.

MichaelC

 

[Hedshaker]

Dear hedshaker,

If God wanted a cure for some malady, He would provide it when He's ready, just as He's done with other ills. God's Wisdom is more than yours.

MichaelC

So what's he waiting for Michael? He/her/it either doesn't care, doesn't know or doesn't exist.

Which is it?

And while your at it please provide the evidence for "just as He's done with other ills".... in your own time.

My Wisdom is infinity greater than your imaginary friend since I actually exist, unless someone else is making these posts.

((looks around in paranoid expectation)

 

[Hedshaker]

Dear hedshaker,

If God wanted a cure for some malady, He would provide it when He's ready, just as He's done with other ills.

So what should we do Michael? Give up on medical science and wait until your friend the creator of the universe is ready while our loved ones suffer and die horribly?

Wake up!

 

[Heterodoxical]

The title of this thread, is like discussing the game between the Los Angeles Lakers and the Dallas Cowboys. If you aren't a sports fan, look the teams up to catch the nuances of that quip.

 

[Heterodoxical]

Dear hedshaker,

If God wanted a cure for some malady, He would provide it when He's ready, just as He's done with other ills. God's Wisdom is more than yours.

MichaelC

That's great to say, but until you lay on your back wondering if you are breathing your last breaths, you are just exactly as ignorant as this post sounded.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear hedshaker,

Already done it! I've been saved by God from a stroke, a heart attack and severe emphysema compounded by pneumonia. Now, I have found out I've been diagnosed with cancer. BTW, I quit smoking cigs

MichaelCadry

 

[MichaelCadry]

To All of My Atheist Friends Here,

Go onto the board and check out the thread Evolution vs God. It is by Knight! I'm sure you will find it very enlightening. I did. Give it a try and see how you believe after that.

Don't forget now!!

Much Love,

MichaelC

 

[Hedshaker]

To All of My Atheist Friends Here,

Go onto the board and check out the thread Evolution vs God. It is by Knight! I'm sure you will find it very enlightening. I did. Give it a try and see how you believe after that.

Don't forget now!!

Much Love,

MichaelC

noguru say it all, here

 

[freelight]

Current assessments.....

Current assessments.....

noguru say it all, here

Well,...while noguru's opinion on the video is strong,...I do recall watching that and say it was pretty 'staged' and edited to suit the 'position' of the creator of the film, naturally. It doesn't go into detail on all the points, evidence, probabilities and other intricate matters about 'evolution', but takes advantage of what cant be given as special 'evidence'.... then redirects it back to the theory that 'God' must have done it. Still incomplete data and asking questions out of thin air. I find the title also misleading, as if 'evolution' has to be 'against' God.

The reality of Life is its own proof. There is existence, there is consciousness. This is all there is, and apparently includes the whole of creation and its movements (evolution).

While 'God' may just be a 'concept',..it depends on how we define 'God' in relation to creation and evolution, and even still....conventional science is limited to its criteria and experimentation to establish facts in the material realm of existence, in so much as such facts can be established or proved. The realm of energy, spirit and consciousness is a more subtle dimension which interpenetrates and pervades the material world, so cannot always be scientifically proven, but remains in the domain of personal 'experience' (subjectivity).

From my view....'evolution' is not contrary to 'God' or the concept of an original creative Intelligence at all, since all life and consciousness appears to co-exist and co-evolve. My summary-view holds here



pj

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear hedshaker,

Surely God can 'cure' anything, but it will happen when He's ready and it already happens through great faith that a person will overcome their maladies. That's for those who He finds great favor with. When you're faced with a great problem, turn to the Great God, for that's mostly the time when people finally do seek him out.

Look at ALL of the illnesses that God HAS helped us with. Now you, WAKE UP!! Hey, I am trying to be as humble as I can here. I don't think anything special about myself. You said Wake Up first, but you're not seeing all of the things God has helped us with. You're griping about all that He hasn't yet. Give it some time. He has a greater answer for all of us soon.

MichaelC

 

[MichaelCadry]

So what's he waiting for Michael? He/her/it either doesn't care, doesn't know or doesn't exist.

Which is it?

And while your at it please provide the evidence for "just as He's done with other ills".... in your own time.

My Wisdom is infinity greater than your imaginary friend since I actually exist, unless someone else is making these posts.

((looks around in paranoid expectation)

Dear hedshaker,

HE doesn't want to yet. We're going to have a lot more to worry about than maladies very, very soon.

He's given us cures like penicillin, tetracyline, aspirin, valium, benadryl, codeine, morphine, etc. He has helped us with many things that he taught man how to do.

Whether you have wisdom or not is in the eye of the beholder.

Thanks for asking!

MichaelC

 

[Ben Masada]

Nope. Wrong again. The universe was dominated by light in the first instants, and matter was formed from the light (look up pair production). Matter is, therefore, an accident of light.

Dark energy has some measured properties (gravitational pressure, energy density, non-interaction with the electric field, approx uniform density as the universe expanded, etc.), just not enough yet to fully describe it's behaviour.

I find your 'proven fact' comments so funny. Keep them coming! :chuckle:

The BB suggests a beginning, but in a restricted sense. If I say that a tv programme has a beginning, I imply that there was a time before then when the programme wasn't showing, because the tv show's beginning was described relative to other events and time existed before, during and after the show.

For the universe, time is an internal property of events within the universe itself. You cannot describe times within the universe in relation to events external to it. If by beginning you mean there was a time when the universe did not exist, then you are making a fundamental mistake about the nature of time. Time cannot extend into the past beyond the BB singularity.

Since there was NO time before the BB in which to embed the BB event, I see no need for a creation event. The BB expansion was internal to the universe and marks the start of time as we can describe it. The universe's 4D space time extent just exists, as a bounded whole. no start, no finish, as measured externally. just existence.

Then you have not been reading my posts. I have been quite clear that using the necessary lack of knowledge of things external to the universe to demonstrate the existence of a creator is to invoke the discredited 'God of the gaps' argument.

Don't be afraid of not knowing all the answers. It is better to honestly not know than to pretend you know something for which the evidence is so weak. Believe it if you want, but don't pretend the evidence and logic is secure.

I am not the one who claims to know all the answers. What I said is that you don't have an answer to my questions. What you have brought up so far is easily refuted by Logic.

 

[Hedshaker]

Dear hedshaker,

Surely God can 'cure' anything, but it will happen when He's ready and it already happens through great faith that a person will overcome their maladies. That's for those who He finds great favor with. When you're faced with a great problem, turn to the Great God, for that's mostly the time when people finally do seek him out.

When he's ready, eh? If someone goes into remission or survives what could be a fatal illness, then praise God. If they deteriorate and die, then God wasn't ready or is working in mysterious ways. How convenient is that? Seems to me your loading the dice in favour of you invisible friend. Heads he wins, tails he can't lose. If that's you waking up maybe better you carry on sleep walking.

Look at ALL of the illnesses that God HAS helped us with. Now you, WAKE UP!! Hey, I am trying to be as humble as I can here. I don't think anything special about myself. You said Wake Up first, but you're not seeing all of the things God has helped us with. You're griping about all that He hasn't yet. Give it some time. He has a greater answer for all of us soon.

There is no evidence that religious belief, prayer, new age mysticism or any other castles-in-the-sky, make any difference to recovery of illnesses, regardless the belief or none belief of suffers. But why worry about evidence when mindless preaching is so much easier?

The best and most successful method for assisting the recovery from illnesses is, by far, medical science, not your invisible friend.

 

[Hedshaker]

Dear hedshaker,

HE doesn't want to yet. We're going to have a lot more to worry about than maladies very, very soon.

Why should anyone believe you? It's always very, very soon, isn't it? But then, when very, very soon comes, guess what? It's still very, very soon. And this has been going on for centuries. We've already had more end-times than we can shake a stick at. When one of you is brave enough to actually put a date on it they're wrong 100% of the time. Bout time you guys gave it a rest.

He's given us cures like penicillin, tetracyline, aspirin, valium, benadryl, codeine, morphine, etc. He has helped us with many things that he taught man how to do.

Whether you have wisdom or not is in the eye of the beholder.

Thanks for asking!

MichaelC

I think the front runners and medical scientists who discovered and developed those drugs are the real hero's. Don't think it isn't noticed when you try to usurp the credit for your invisible friend when science makes progress.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear hedshaker,

If you've got some bone to pick with God, don't expect me to intercede with it. Tell Him yourself how you are not pleased with the job He is doing. I said soon and I also said that I thought it would be one or two years more, and maybe it is not even one. How much more do you want me to narrow it down to?? You are an ingrate and don't even know it. If you had it ALL, then you would be happy. Don't forget Who these 'front runners and medical scientists' receive their assistance from. It is God, not just science. Science doesn't exist without God. God does not need science for Him to exist.

Take Good Care Of Yourself, Hedshaker,

Michael

 

[Hedshaker]

Dear hedshaker,

If you've got some bone to pick with God, don't expect me to intercede with it. Tell Him yourself how you are not pleased with the job He is doing. I said soon and I also said that I thought it would be one or two years more, and maybe it is not even one. How much more do you want me to narrow it down to?? You are an ingrate and don't even know it. If you had it ALL, then you would be happy. Don't forget Who these 'front runners and medical scientists' receive their assistance from. It is God, not just science. Science doesn't exist without God. God does not need science for Him to exist.
l

I would if I thought for a second there was anything there to pick a bone with. So far the issue is with you talking on behalf of your invisible friend.

I assure you I am very grateful for the health care I and my family are privy to. But only to the "real" hard working professionals and scientists who make it possible. If you think there is some entity outside of your mind making it possible then bully for you but I do not believe you. Nor do I believe your ridiculous end time prophesies. Not interested!

 

[MichaelCadry]

Well hedshaker,

Then quit posting if you don't care. Why don't you go to Evolution vs God, a thread by Knight, and see on Page 20, the entry post no. 299 by FraterJoseph. You might learn an awful lot. It explains how black holes make Einstein look like you.

Hope You Don't Kiss Your Eternal Life Away,

I Do Care Hedshaker,

MichaelC