Common views of God and time.

[Nathon Detroit]

(2 Peter 1:19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Peter admonishes us in the above verse to pay attention to the prophecies in the Bible

Great! So now answer my question. What is the point of prophecy? Why does God say He tells us things in advance that are going to happen?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

When God stated "without fail" did God know it would fail? YES or NO?

Assuming you will be sticking with your earlier answer you would have to answer "YES, God knew that 'without fail' actually meant 'fail'"
which of course makes God one of two things: a liar, or irrational.

Joshua 1

1: Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
2: Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.
3: Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.
4: From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.
5: There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
6: Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.
7: Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
8: This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The Lord told Moses twice that He would destroy Israel and start over with Moses. Did He? No, He did not do what He said He would do.

Is He a liar? No, He changed His mind.

The Lord said He would without fail drive the Hittites, the Hivites, the Jebusites -- all of the 'Ites -- out of the Promised Land. Did He? No, He did not. And later, He said in the first person that He had promised He would but that he didn't do what He promised. He changed His mind.

The Lord promised King Nebuchadnezzer that he would destroy Tyre completely, and everything they had would be his. Never happened. Is God a liar? Don't think so.

Then, God told King Neb that He had promised that to him, but that it hadn't come to pass, so instead He would deliver Egypt to him.

Again, never happened. Why? Free will - Nebuchadnezzer was on his way to Egypt, but turned around and chose to go home when he heard his father died. It didn't come about as stated.

The Holy Spirit prophecied through a prophet to Paul that if he went to Jerusalem, the Jews there would bind Paul's hands and feet and give him to the Romans. What happened?

Paul went there, and the Jews tried to kill him, so a Roman guard rode in, rescued Paul from the Jews and took him into custody against the will of the angry Jews there.

Was the Holy Spirit a liar? No. Human free will changed the situation. God expected one thing to happen, but it ended up happening the opposite way from how it was prophecied.


In each of these situations, did God fail? No, in many cases, men failed. And God worked from that. In the case of Nebuchadnezzer and Egypt, he simply chose in the end to not accept the gift God promised Him. If Nebuchadnezzer had continued on to Egypt, he would have conquered it. But he decided to go home after his father's death.

God doesn't fail. People do. And He responds to that.

POTD :first:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Joshua 1

1: Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
2: Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.
3: Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.
4: From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.
5: There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
6: Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.
7: Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
8: This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

STP, this would be a lot more fun and we would waste a lot less time if you would make a point with your posts. Please don't pull a "squeaky" and merely post Bible verses without explaining exactly what point you are trying to make. Seriously, it just wastes all of our time.

 

[The Graphite]

Great! So now answer my question. What is the point of prophecy? Why does God says He tells us things in advance that are going to happen?

He should read the verse again. Peter doesn't admonish us to "pay attention to prophecies." He admonishes his congregations to "heed" them. That is, to obey them! Which means the purpose of the prophecy is to change human behavior.

Case in point, the story of Jonah. God said He would surely overthrow Ninevah on a specific day. He did not, and this angered Jonah. At the end, Jonah explains why he did not want to go to Ninevah. Do you recall why?

Jonah explains that it is because he knows that The Lord is a God who repents! :thumb:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Still, I see no pay-off, no reason to accept such a view, no compelling reason to accept it. At least none I can think of. However, based on the biblical record that view would make more sense than God being eternally outside of time which flies in the face of almost every single page of the Bible.

So all the historical discussion and exegesis by so many great theologians of the past and many in the present is easily waved off?

The "pay off" is a basic view that whatever the essence of God is, it is one that is of a maximum God in all that He is. The atemporality of God is intuitively known outside of special revelation and must be rationalized away for a person to assume God is not in time.

What is the compelling reason to deny it is the better question.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Great! So now answer my question. What is the point of prophecy? Why does God says He tells us things in advance that are going to happen?

So that we may believe.

But, why should we believe if he is wrong?

Daniel 11
24: He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
25: And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
26: Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
27: And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.
28: Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29: At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

STP, this would be a lot more fun and we would waste a lot less time if you would make a point with your posts. Please don't pull a "squeaky" and merely post Bible verses without explaining exactly what point you are trying to make. Seriously, it just wastes all of our time.

The point: everything in Joshua is based on this!

7: Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
8: This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

You are making seem as though God was horribly wrong for saying he would "without fail drive them out" when he told them in the beginning he would not fail them, with these conditions.

 

[tetelestai]

Great! So now answer my question. What is the point of prophecy? Why does God say He tells us things in advance that are going to happen?

There are many reasons Knight.

Prophecy warns us of false teachers (open theists :rotfl

Prophecy outlines God plan for the ages

Prophecy gives us hope and security for the days that lie ahead of us

Prophecy shows unbelievers that God exists.

I’m sure there are many other reasons, these are a few.

Why don’t you make your point as to how prophecy proves open theism is not false.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Which means the purpose of the prophecy is to change human behavior.

BINGO!!!

"Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He". - John 13:19

“And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe" - John 14:29

God uses prophecy as a lever, like a mechanism to alter man's will. God wants our will to more closely be aligned with His will, so He influences us through prophecy. This notion of course destroys settled theism and leaves it in the corner like stinky diaper.

There simply IS NO OTHER purpose for prophecy other than to convince men that God is who He says He is. And if God is trying to effect our will via prophecy clearly He doesn't know the future exhaustively nor does He close the future via His direct ordination.

Interaction with perfect foreknowledge Pt. 1
Interaction with perfect foreknowledge Pt. 2
Interaction with perfect foreknowledge Pt. 3

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

BINGO!!!

"Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He". - John 13:19

:up: bolded part is key.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Prophecy warns us of false teachers (open theists :rotfl

I realize you are trying to be funny but even in your jest you are appealing to an open future. If God wanted you to be aware of something that might harm you He must understand that you need that advice (i.e., the instruction of that prophecy has a purpose! And the purpose is to effect your will and warn you about open theists! God wants to change your future.) Again, the prophecy is a mechanism for change, God uses prophecy to ALTER the future in a way that more aligns with His will.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

:up: bolded part is key.

OK, so you may as well bow out of this thread if you have nothing of substance to add.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Again, the prophecy is a mechanism for change, God uses prophecy to ALTER the future in a way that more aligns with His will.

How does the Daniel 11 prophecy alter the future?

 

[Ps82]

I can give you dozens.... but before I do let me ask you this....

What is the point of prophecy in the first place? Why does God use prophecy? Why does God tell us what is going to happen before it happens?

God gives us the answer to this question in His word.

Hi Knight,
I can tell you what HE told me about why HE gave me my prophetic dreams.

After I realized that I had experience a super-natural occurrence with the 4 dreams that I had, which all came true and in order, I asked God two questions. But, there was only ONE ANSWER for the two questions.

I asked - why HE gave me the dreams and why he didn't tell me what choices to make during those experiences.

He gave ONE answer in a still small voice:
I just wanted you to know that I am real; I am alive; and I know what is going on in your life - even before it happens.

What did you find in the scriptures about this matter?

BTW, I see no conflict in saying that God can allow things to progress naturally by his permissive will ... while at the same time controlling the process according to his set fullness of time - except where we are concerned. I think that God experiences sequential time only through us. Much like HE only experienced pain and suffering through the flesh of created mankind.

The point you made about TIME being one of those things that defines who God is - may not be exactly correct.

Although TIME is in him ... he is not bound by time. Time does not exist outside of him ... but because there is something called time that affects and limits us ... does not mean that it limits God.

Through HIS permissive will some things are allowed to progress naturally and God is aware of how they will progress ... but other things will progress only according to the plans of God ... so that he is in complete control.

With my dreams it was not important what choices I made through them for God already knew how they would turn out if I were left alone ... what mattered was that through them I learned that he was real, alive, and was even aware of my little ole life - which is but a breath in the scheme of things!

 

[godrulz]

Biblical eschatology is pretty clear. The rapture, tribulation, millennium, Great White Throne Judgment, etc.

It is the open theist who makes God the puppet master. On one hand the open theist believes God has disclosed eschatology to us, and that we have free will. But then the open theist believes God has to pull billions of strings every day to make sure everything works out the way He said it would. What happens to free will during this string pulling process?

Also, the open theist believes God gets frustrated, mad, hurt, jealous, and angry, etc during the string pulling, yet somehow the open theist still is confident that God will not change His mind about the open theist’s guaranteed eternal life.

The reason we are able to have Biblical eschatology is because God is outside of time. God already knows what happened, right down to how many hairs on the head of the last person to die in the battle of Armageddon.

How can you guys be so sure about your eternal security if you believe God changes His mind, repents, gets angry, and is filled with hate? What if He changes His mind about your salvation and eternal security?

This is not a fair representation of OVT or their understanding of prophecy/eschatology (Revelation is more general than you think...it does not matter how many hairs on the Antichrist's chin...hairs on our head is present vs future knowledge).

TOL OVT/Plot do support OSAS. In reality, most prominent OVTs like Sanders argue against it based on free will theism and OVT principles. Even if OSAS is true, we can take God at His Word because of His faithfulness. God is not fickle and only changes His mind in response to changing contingencies and consistent with His character (righteousness, etc.).

God is not emotionally unstable nor does He lack ability. This does not mean He is all-controlling, absolutely impassible/immutable.

It is too early to reject OVT because your view of it is superficial and inaccurate.

 

[godrulz]

If you believe that ... why does God not go back in time and fix things?

Because it's not possible.

I agree that the past is fixed and that God cannot change it. The future is also not a place or thing to know or visit, but God and man create the future. Only the present is real.

 

[godrulz]

Anthropopathism

No. What truth about God does it convey if it is only figurative? Metaphors or anthro. must convey something about God. How else could God say that He now knows something other than what He said (how would God communicate the opposite? He could not...even if you do not believe the face value statement, there must be a way for God to communicate both possibilities).

 

[hippiechyck]

(Matt 11:23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

In this verse we see Jesus saying what would have happened had different choices been made by men.

Now, I believe God’s intelligence is such that He could take any event in all of creation at any moment in the history of the universe, change it in one of an infinite number of ways, and then tell you exactly what would happen differently because of the change. Without any strain He could carry out all the intricate ramifications of that one change throughout history to the end of time and beyond time into eternity. He has all the possibilities and the one actuality clearly focused in His Mind at all times. His genius is endlessly vast; “His Understanding is infinite.”(Psalms 147:4-5)

Not only does God know in complete detail what will happen, but He also knows what would have happened had He decided to adopt some course of action other than the one He chose (see above verse). If the “one indivisible system of things” were different in even one detail, if ever the course of one single atomic particle were different, the entire system would be changed. One variation would lead to another and another and another in a vast, intertwining system of cause and effect.

God knows the future as clearly as the past. His knowledge is not subject to development; He never needs to learn anything because He already knows everything. (Isa 44:6-8)

The only way all this is possible is for God to be "outside" of time.

well stated! :chuckle:

 

[godrulz]

Then how do you know you have eternal security?

How do you know you will go to Heaven when you die?

How do you know that Jesus will even come back?

God's Word and His character ensure He is faithful/trustworthy, not fickle. When God changes His mind in Scripture from an OVT perspective, it is in order to remain righteous and a response to changing contingencies. It is not an unstable, capricious, quirky thing (arbitrary). God would be unable to show mercy when people repent if He could not change His mind. Hezekiah would not have lived another 15 years in your view. Prayer is meaningless in a fatalistic system, etc.