Common views of God and time.

[nicholsmom]

God is bound by many things.

God is bound by His own reality isn't He? He couldn't decide to have never existed could He? He couldn't make a three-sided triangle or create a rock so big He couldn't lift it. Those are logical absurdities. God is real, rational, and logical and therefore bound by the character of His own existence.

I agree that God is bound by His own character.

Here is where I get lost:

I would assert to you that time is one of those things that defines God.

I've seen many Scriptures that describe the attributes & character of Almighty God, but this is not among them... unless I've missed something...

God is a living God and therefore experiences reality sequentially which allows God to be rational.

That God experiences things sequentially does in no way prevent Him also doing otherwise. He most certainly experiences everything quite differently from what we do - it's all a part of His uniqueness.

This also confuses me:

Time wasn't created, time merely is.

This is completely without foundation, and actually contradicts every finding of science, interpretation of evidence notwithstanding. Time is an intrinsic part of the space-time continuum - without one, you don't have the other. Perhaps you hold to the theory that the space in which all this matter floats in the Universe also "merely is," but that is also contrary to all scientific knowledge - it is irrational. Both time and space (as we now experience them) had their beginning simultaneously at that point described in Genesis 1: 1 "In the beginning, God ..."

If you have some sort of evidence that I've not seen about the origin of everything we know, I'd surely like to see it.

This part is quite fascinating...

Time is how we describe a sequential reality.

though simplistic. Of course we describe things sequentially - we're temporal beings. We certainly can't comprehend anything else. It's all part of the "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts" thing.

And this...

God created us in His image and therefore we experience one event after another event (sequentially) similar to God.

... wow, is just an amazing assertion. So since we see in the visual spectrum of light, that's all God can see? Since we hear in the auditory spectrum of sound, that's all God can hear? Why would you assume that since we experience all things sequentially, that God is limited to that perspective?

 

[tetelestai]

Muz' answer was that God caused them to feel these emotions and make these decisions.

This of course would violate man's free will.

God is a respecter of free will.

Therefore Muz' answer is false.

 

[The Graphite]

Then how do you know you have eternal security?

Not because He knows it, but because He has guaranteed it with His resurrection, and I am sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of the redemption of the promised possession. If He has purposed to secure me in that, then nothing can stop Him, now can it? Or is your God so weak He cannot guarantee such a thing...?

How do you know you will go to Heaven when you die?

See above, and Romans 10:9-10.

How do you know that Jesus will even come back?

Because it is necessary for Him to fulfill His purpose of both justice and grace, and to bring to a completion His plan for this world. It doesn't have to happen on a particular day. In fact, we can "hasten" His coming, thus changing what day this will happen. It is not certain what day He will come, and so we pray earnestly, "Lord, come quickly!"

How does He do this without violating free will?

If God purposes unconditionally to drive from Denver to Chicago, can anyone stop Him? Of course not.

And if He purposes or wills unconditionally to have a final battle against Satan, is anyone going to stop Him? Is there any chance of Him losing?

No, and no. How on earth does that depend on human free will? It doesn't. Like I said, many details may or may not happen, just like a lot of OT prophecies which didn't come to pass as stated.

Why do you find this so difficult to understand? It's pretty elementary.

 

[ddevonb]

Then how do you know you have eternal security?

How do you know you will go to Heaven when you die?

Because the conditions for our promise of salvation have already been fulfilled.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You mean a 4 sided triangle?

LOL.... Yes. :doh:

 

[ddevonb]

We all agree that God is eternal.

When God creates something, the creation cannot be eternal, it has a beginning. The creation can be everlasting, but the creation cannot become eternal, or God would not be eternal.

God can be the only thing eternal. God created souls. All souls have a beginning, however all souls have no end. Even unbeliever’s souls do not have an end; the unbeliever’s soul spends “eternity” in everlasting damnation. The Believer’s soul spends “eternity” in Heaven, but the soul is everlasting not eternal. “Eternal life” is an everlasting soul in eternity.

It is impossible for our finite minds to understand what “no beginning” means in relation to eternal. This is why the atheists always ask “where did God come from?”, or “Who made God?”, and there is no way for a Christian to answer it other than to say "God always was". This usually never convinces the atheist.

God has given us prophecy for us, not for Him. Prophecy is not God giving us His blueprint of what His intentions are. It is God telling us what already happened, yet to us, it hasn't happened yet.

While it is true that we had a beginning and God didn't. Eternal has multiple definitions... and everlasting is one of them.

 

[The Graphite]

LOL.... Yes. :doh:

Darn, I was about to shout "HERESY!" but he beat me to it. :chuckle:

 

[ddevonb]

B
For God to go back in time to fix something would compromise His perfect justice, His perfect righteousness, and many of His other perfect attributes.

No it wouldn't . There are many times on earth when God's justice does not happen. If he could go back in time he could help right an injustice by making sure the guilty party got caught.

 

[tetelestai]

Why do you find this so difficult to understand?

Because open theism is a paradox

 

[Nathon Detroit]

But, to answer yours, "Sure".

Sure???

So lets review....

I asked...

Based on your view how can you explain prophecies, and predictions by God that did not come to pass?

You responded...

If a prophecy "didn't come to pass", there was an underlying condition that was met or not met.

Which of course would/should lead anyone to counter with...

But God would already know in advance if those "conditions" were going to be met or not correct?

To which you respond with "sure".

Assuming your "sure" means "yes" your entire position falls apart. For if God already knows the actual outcome there are no such thing as "conditions" that may or may not be met (God would already know that part of the story as well - which you have conceded). Everything is already settled according to you. No conditions waiting to be met or unmet, no contingencies, no possibilities, just actualities. If the final result is known by God then we should never, ever, not even once find God predicting or prophesying something that does not come to pass as stated.

 

[tetelestai]

There are many times on earth when God's justice does not happen.

False

God's justice will prevail. Just becasue it appears people get away with stuff on earth, does not mean justice will not prevail in the end.

Everything works out for God's plan.

 

[ddevonb]

Let’s use the battle of Armageddon as the example.

According to open theists, God doesn’t know the future, but somehow prophesized to us this battle will take place anyway. Which of the following is true according to open theism?

God has to coerce millions of human beings and events for this battle to take place. This violates human free will.

There are millions of people who's free will would lead them to destroy Israel if they thought they could. They only thing that would need to change is for them to start believing they could actually get away with destroying Israel. God could convince them of this without violating there free will.


You underestimate man's capacity for evil. God may confuse, deceive or even suggest things to an enemy. But they stiil can say no.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Assuming your "sure" means "yes" your entire position falls apart. For if God already knows the actual outcome there are no such thing as "conditions" that may or may not be met (God would already know that part of the story as well - which you have conceded). Everything is already settled according to you. No conditions waiting to be met or unmet, no contingencies, no possibilities, just actualities. If the final result is known by God then we should never, ever, not even once find God predicting or prophesying something that does not come to pass as stated.

You're probably referring to something like the Joshua "prophecy" that says "I will without fail drive them out from you". Failed prophecy right? No, it was based on Israel's obedience. Now, did God know they would disobey? of course.

Will you answer my question?

 

[tetelestai]

Based on your view how can you explain prophecies, and predictions by God that did not come to pass?

Why don't you give us an example of one of these alleged prophecies that did not come to pass.

 

[tetelestai]

God may confuse, deceive or
even suggest things to an enemy.

We believe he doesn't pull strings. While occasionly he may supernaturally intervene it is not his normal mode.

Which one is it?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Will you answer my question?

I already have. And so have dozens of other people. God has the power to bring things to pass, God can predict how us humans will act and the things we will likely be doing and then interject and interact within that prediction to bring about His will. And if it doesn't happen exactly the way God has predicted God will then use that outcome to bring about His will (if He so chooses).

God knows how many times a rooster will be crowing during the night, He doesn't need to remove the roosters will to get it to do what it will already be doing, and if by some chance all the roosters fell asleep I am sure God could wake them.

Open Theists do not claim God has no power. In fact just the opposite. God is so powerful that He can work His plan within the fabric of trillions of freewill agents. That is a far more powerful God than the one who can only work His plan if He has fixed the result.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Why don't you give us an example of one of these alleged prophecies that did not come to pass.

I can give you dozens.... but before I do let me ask you this....

What is the point of prophecy in the first place? Why does God use prophecy? Why does God tell us what is going to happen before it happens?

God gives us the answer to this question in His word.

 

[The Graphite]

The Lord told Moses twice that He would destroy Israel and start over with Moses. Did He? No, He did not do what He said He would do.

Is He a liar? No, He changed His mind.

The Lord said He would without fail drive the Hittites, the Hivites, the Jebusites -- all of the 'Ites -- out of the Promised Land. Did He? No, He did not. And later, He said in the first person that He had promised He would but that he didn't do what He promised. He changed His mind.

The Lord promised King Nebuchadnezzer that he would destroy Tyre completely, and everything they had would be his. Never happened. Is God a liar? Don't think so.

Then, God told King Neb that He had promised that to him, but that it hadn't come to pass, so instead He would deliver Egypt to him.

Again, never happened. Why? Free will - Nebuchadnezzer was on his way to Egypt, but turned around and chose to go home when he heard his father died. It didn't come about as stated.

The Holy Spirit prophecied through a prophet to Paul that if he went to Jerusalem, the Jews there would bind Paul's hands and feet and give him to the Romans. What happened?

Paul went there, and the Jews tried to kill him, so a Roman guard rode in, rescued Paul from the Jews and took him into custody against the will of the angry Jews there.

Was the Holy Spirit a liar? No. Human free will changed the situation. God expected one thing to happen, but it ended up happening the opposite way from how it was prophecied.


In each of these situations, did God fail? No, in many cases, men failed. And God worked from that. In the case of Nebuchadnezzer and Egypt, he simply chose in the end to not accept the gift God promised Him. If Nebuchadnezzer had continued on to Egypt, he would have conquered it. But he decided to go home after his father's death.

God doesn't fail. People do. And He responds to that.

 

[tetelestai]

What is the point of prophecy in the first place? Why does God use prophecy? Why does God tell us what is going to happen before it happens?

(2 Peter 1:19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Peter admonishes us in the above verse to pay attention to the prophecies in the Bible

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You're probably referring to something like the Joshua "prophecy" that says "I will without fail drive them out from you". Failed prophecy right? No, it was based on Israel's obedience. Now, did God know they would disobey? of course.

:dizzy:

STP, you are a smart guy. You should be smart enough to see how silly your above comment is. If God already knew Israel would disobey prior to the time God said "without fail" He wouldn't have said "without fail".

When God stated "without fail" did God know it would fail? YES or NO?

Assuming you will be sticking with your earlier answer you would have to answer "YES, God knew that 'without fail' actually meant 'fail'"
which of course makes God one of two things: a liar, or irrational.