Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

[popsthebuilder]

Romans 10:14--"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall
they hear without a preacher?"

Romans 10 (WEB) - ሮሜ
15: And how will they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

 

[popsthebuilder]

What's your testimony of how you came to Christ? I've
yet to hear a Calvinist give a testimony of how they
came to Christ? Why don't you be the first?

I actually believe the tenets of Calvinism as far as I understand it so far.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

Given the title of your OP, is it your opinion God did not know you would believe the Good News before you did so?

AMR

 

[Robert Pate]

Just looking at verse 30 for the moment:

And those whom he predestined he also called,
and those whom he called he also justified,
and those whom he justified he also glorified.

If we are going to take God, through Paul at his word we have to say that there are some [at least] who are predestined. And if we follow the words of Paul those who are predestined are also gifted with some other things; being called, being justified, and being glorified.

Note that all of these things are the working of God alone. There is no "accepting" the works of God.

I understand that Paul does not use the term Heaven here. If you wish to argue that "glorified" does not mean at least being in Heaven, go for it.

If God is indeed calling everyone to himself, as you insist, and if we take Paul at his word, then universalism inescapably follows.

Since it is clear that Paul is not a universalist, let us just assume that Pate is incorrect.

God is not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

Start with that thought. God would like for everyone to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:3, 4. But we know that not all want to be saved, because they love their sins more than they love Christ.

Nevertheless, God provides salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9, and in doing so reconciles the whole world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

God now sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ who is the reconciler and justifier of the human race to God, Romans 3:26.

Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus who has reconciled the whole world unto God. It is now possible for... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord to be saved" Romans 10:13.

 

[Robert Pate]

Given the title of your OP, is it your opinion God did not know you would believe the Good News before you did so?

AMR

The angels in heaven apparently didn't know.

"Likewise I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repents" Luke 15:10.

Why don't you try making an angel happy.

 

[Brother Ducky]

God is not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

Start with that thought. God would like for everyone to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:3, 4. But we know that not all want to be saved, because they love their sins more than they love Christ.

Nevertheless, God provides salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9, and in doing so reconciles the whole world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

God now sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ who is the reconciler and justifier of the human race to God, Romans 3:26.

Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus who has reconciled the whole world unto God. It is now possible for... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord to be saved" Romans 10:13.

I assume this means that you are unable or unwilling to deal with Romans 8:30 and what it says to your position regrading God's calling?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

God is not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

Start with that thought. God would like for everyone to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:3, 4. But we know that not all want to be saved, because they love their sins more than they love Christ.

Nevertheless, God provides salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9, and in doing so reconciles the whole world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

God now sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ who is the reconciler and justifier of the human race to God, Romans 3:26.

Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus who has reconciled the whole world unto God. It is now possible for... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord to be saved" Romans 10:13.

Great post Pate.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Pate isn't a Universalist, like some of you accuse him of being.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Romans 8:29--"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"

Foreknow: God knew beforehand who would be saved.
Predestinate: God choose those who He knew beforehand,
would be saved, to become conformed to the image of His Son.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Pate isn't a Universalist, like some of you accuse him of being.

I know that he is not [he certainly has damned me and all Reformed/Calvinist believers to hell]; but based on what he proclaims, he "should be" a universalist. That is to say he holds positions that logically lead to universalism. He just ignores them, leading to his highly idiosyncratic and illogical as well as unbiblical belief system.

E.g. His response to my post regarding Romans 8:30 [which you thought was "great."] It was totally unresponsive. But if Pate is correct in saying that God is calling everybody, then he should also follow the text and say that God also glorifies all, which I take to refer to the Christian's final glorification.

Now he [or others] might disagree, but random verses should not be the response. This is a theological forum. If you disagree, think and form a reasoned response. A theological response.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I know that he is not; but based on what he proclaims, he "should be" a universalist. That is to say he holds positions that logically lead to universalism. He just ignores them, leading to his highly idiosyncratic and illogical as well as unbiblical belief system.

E.g. His response to my post regarding Romans 8:30 [which you thought was "great."] It was totally unresponsive. But if Pate is correct in saying that God is calling everybody, then he should also follow the text and say that God also glorifies all, which I take to refer to the Christian's final glorification.

Now he [or others] might disagree, but random verses should not be the response. This is a theological forum. If you disagree, think and form a reasoned response. A theological response.

Sometimes, all that is needed is a "single sentence." Besides that,
if someone creates a response that makes "War and Peace" look
like a short religious tract, how many posters will take the time to
read it?

 

[Robert Pate]

I know that he is not [he certainly has damned me and all Reformed/Calvinist believers to hell]; but based on what he proclaims, he "should be" a universalist. That is to say he holds positions that logically lead to universalism. He just ignores them, leading to his highly idiosyncratic and illogical as well as unbiblical belief system.

E.g. His response to my post regarding Romans 8:30 [which you thought was "great."] It was totally unresponsive. But if Pate is correct in saying that God is calling everybody, then he should also follow the text and say that God also glorifies all, which I take to refer to the Christian's final glorification.

Now he [or others] might disagree, but random verses should not be the response. This is a theological forum. If you disagree, think and form a reasoned response. A theological response.

Chances are that you have already damned yourself to hell.

Your doctrine disgraces God and insults his Son Jesus Christ.

You deny dozens of scriptures in the Bible and have no use for the Gospel and justification by faith.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The angels in heaven apparently didn't know.

"Likewise I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repents" Luke 15:10.

Why don't you try making an angel happy.

Angels are not omniscient, Robert, so I am wondering why you appeal to their limited knowledge. :AMR:

You are dodging the direct question:

Is it your opinion God did not know you would believe the Good News before you did so?

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Romans 8:29--"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"

Foreknow: God knew beforehand who would be saved.
Predestinate: God choose those who He knew beforehand,
would be saved, to become conformed to the image of His Son.

Angels are not omniscient, Robert, so I am wondering why you appeal to their limited knowledge. :AMR:

You are dodging the direct question:

Is it your opinion God did not know you would believe the Good News before you did so?

AMR

Hopefully, Robert will actually answer the question then.

AMR

 

[Brother Ducky]

Sometimes, all that is needed is a "single sentence." Besides that,
if someone creates a response that makes "War and Peace" look
like a short religious tract, how many posters will take the time to
read it?

True enough. But not always. Does it matter how many people read a post, if it brings glory to God?

 

[Brother Ducky]

Chances are that you have already damned yourself to hell.

Your doctrine disgraces God and insults his Son Jesus Christ.

You deny dozens of scriptures in the Bible and have no use for the Gospel and justification by faith.

Negative on all counts. And again you have failed to respond in any meaningful way. Why is that?

 

[beloved57]

Chances are that you have already damned yourself to hell.

Your doctrine disgraces God and insults his Son Jesus Christ.

You deny dozens of scriptures in the Bible and have no use for the Gospel and justification by faith.

You teach Justification by works, by what a person does !

 

[Robert Pate]

Angels are not omniscient, Robert, so I am wondering why you appeal to their limited knowledge. :AMR:

You are dodging the direct question:

Is it your opinion God did not know you would believe the Good News before you did so?

AMR

You are assuming that God knows everything that is happening on the earth.

Truth of the matter is that God is very absent from what is happening on the earth.

What makes you think that angels have limited knowledge?

 

[Ben Masada]

If the foundation of your doctrine is false then everything that you build on that foundation will be false also.

The Foundation of Calvinism is "Predestination". There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to either heaven or to hell. It is a false doctrine that evolved out of the twisted mind of a heretic back in the mid 1500's by the name of John Calvin.

The apostles and the early church built their foundation (Faith) on Jesus Christ and his Gospel, not on a man conceived doctrine of predestination.

"For no other foundation can man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" 1 Corinthians 3:11.

To teach that you must already be saved to get saved is an insult to human intellect. That is the same as saying that before you buy a car you must already own it. If you already own it why would you need to buy it? If you are already saved why would you need to get saved again?

This is what happens when you build doctrine on false prepositions such as predestinationism. You wind up with another false doctrine like "You must already be saved to be saved".

If one must already be salved to get saved it is because he or she was not saved in the first place. Some times a little of Logic works.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

You are assuming that God knows everything that is happening on the earth.

Truth of the matter is that God is very absent from what is happening on the earth.

Another keeper to add to my collection of just how far you are outside the camp, Robert.

What makes you think that angels have limited knowledge?

They are creatures, not God.

AMR